Chuck Yates Needs A Job

0:21 Hey everybody, welcome to Chuck Yates needs a job, the podcast, really cool guest today. I got Guyine. Did I say that right? You said it right. Oh, it's amazing. The mediation guy or

0:33 meditation guy, meditation guy, the mediation guy. We're not, we're not bringing lawyers in here to settle on it. Yeah, yeah, exactly perfect.

0:43 This is a really cool deal because you and I were introduced to a good friend of mine from high school who had addiction problems. You helped him. We got on the phone. We talked for like an hour

0:55 and a half and I wanted to have you on the podcast to talk about that because oil and gas guys, I mean addiction rates have to be the highest on the planet, I would think. So I appreciate you

1:07 coming on. Yeah, you're welcome. And anything I can do to be useful, I'd be glad to. I do have quite a bit of experience And your friend, he did a lot of good work when he was in drug treatment.

1:22 And my take is that industry could use a little disruption and actually use some help after. Because there's only so much that can happen to someone, let's say, in the oil field industry to go away

1:37 for 45 days. Yeah. But it's a bit unrealistic. It's all good after that. And there's some sort of part of our culture that thinks, OK, send you to treatment. It's all good It's a lot more

1:49 complicated than that. Yeah. And what I try and do is work with people - I have worked in drug treatment centers. But I like to work with them after where they really need some help and continue

2:00 their momentum. Because you can go back to work and just have it be a temporary band aid. Because the reason it's complicated is a lot more - the drugs and alcohol are a symptom of something

2:13 underlying and just stopping drugs and alcohol doesn't get rid of daddy issues or trauma issues and unresolved trauma is one of the biggest reasons people chronically relapse. So, you know, kind of

2:29 thinking about this, you know, I've always heard that it's a disease. I, do you believe it's a disease or do you believe because it almost sounded like what you just said is a little bit different.

2:41 There's underlying trauma and that's just something you use or people, people predisposed to use alcohol and drugs versus others or how does that work in your mind? Well, in my mind, it's a great

2:53 question. It's complex and should start to be treated as if it's complex. So, in my estimation, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the 12 steps of alcoholics and onomus and that model. What my

3:11 experience tells me is it's not enough. Now, for some people, it is enough. So somebody listening to this might go. Hey man, I've been sober for 30 years by going to Alcoholics Anonymous. I

3:25 don't knock that. But the efficacy rates are not that high for just doing that. So it's the underlying problem is the amount of people who get well is not as much as you would think it is. It's

3:42 hard to do research on it, but the efficacy is not as high as it could or should or needs to be So it may work for some people and that's great. And they might complain, hey, it worked for me.

3:54 And I won't knock that. But some people, I think addiction should be put on a spectrum, you know, ADD and autism are on the same spectrum. And we all have traits of

4:08 it. Somebody can drink a glass of communion wine and be dead in three weeks. I drink my communion wine and I'm not going to be dead in three weeks There's a lot of. I think what needs to happen is

4:21 that's a foundation. And I think Alcoholics Anonymous is intended to be a springboard. It says we know but a little. These are merely suggestions. And I think it's complicated. And one of the

4:32 number one reasons for relapse is trauma. If you look for chronic relapses, and that doesn't get dealt with in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, that's nothing wrong with Alcoholics Anonymous,

4:43 but it's not going to treat your trauma This is some stat, like 96 of chronically relapsing addicts and Alcoholics of unresolved trauma. And that typically needs to be dealt with after they leave.

4:59 It often doesn't get dealt with. And you just have this cycle. The other thing that's interesting, there's a stat that - if you have adverse childhood experiences, it's called an ACE test of seven

5:11 or higher, you have a 1, 400 higher chance

5:17 of being an IV drug user.

5:20 So to me, it looks like that population needs to be treated for their trauma. And that needs to be in addition to some of the really good fundamentals of the 12 steps and alcoholics and onomists.

5:35 You and I may have talked about this on the phone when we talked the other day, but the, you know, the, the Navy seals actually search out kids that had, or people that had traumatic childhoods

5:49 Because as horrible as it sounds, they're used to running on adrenaline. You know, if you're beaten by your father or whatever, you ran on adrenaline all the time and you know how to operate under

5:59 that. So that's perfect to be a Navy seal when you're going and getting shot at. And I don't know this for a fact. And I say this with all due love and respect for everybody in the oil field

6:12 because they're amazing people. It wouldn't surprise me just kind of giving the anecdotal evidence. because it's really dangerous out there. You can lose your life at any given moment. And so I

6:22 wonder if oil field doesn't attract or even subconsciously recruit people that had traumatic childhoods, just because of that, they know how to operate - Well, yeah, and there's also some hyper

6:34 vigilance and some adrenaline, it's also exciting. You could have a lot of people in the oil field business who are ADD.

6:42 A lot of ADD people are really good at being paramedics or something with a lot of moving parts 'cause they can see it all. The flip side of that resilience could be, man, I'm gonna be a heroin

6:56 addict and live under a bridge and survive, that takes a lot of resilience. If I can be a Navy Sea, I can also be survived as a heroin addict. So it can be useful for sure, but there's gotta be a

7:10 way to repolarize that and make it a useful skill set rather than. to burn the house down - Yeah - But I see exactly where you're going. And again, I used to work at an ADD clinic. A lot of what

7:27 happens in the addiction world is it's complex. There's a lot of what we call comorbidity. Some people, the substances are the least of their problems. If I stop drinking and I could still have

7:37 ADD that I haven't dealt with, I could still have trauma that I haven't dealt with. And then it becomes like whack-a-mole And sometimes there's a, it's not a myth. Maybe it's a hope that like,

7:51 okay, I don't drink and there's a massive payoff for it. And in many cases, there is a massive payoff, but it's not gonna get rid of your ADD. It's not gonna get rid of your trauma. And it's not

8:01 gonna instantly make you be an expert on relationships. There's a lot of other work in my experience that has to go on beyond in addition to 45 days in drug treatment in addition to going to

8:15 alcoholics and onomists. In the big book, it tells you to see where spiritual people are, right? To seek spiritual direction. You have a spiritual director. I have several spiritual directors.

8:25 It tells you to go see shrinks. It tells you to go see doctors. And I think that's the area that I have a passion for, is to get some extra help. Because my experience, I have lots of trauma. I

8:38 have lots of attachment trauma. Not drinking doesn't deal with that. I've had to do other things in addition to. And a lot of that's not provided Let me throw out one more Band-Aid. And then after

8:49 we talk about this Band-Aid, just 'cause I'm kind of interested in it, I wanna go to,

8:55 okay, we have a blank slate. Let's create the system to best handle this. But the other Band-Aid, I've actually read a bunch of the research just 'cause in my career, I had to deal with

9:09 people with addiction. And there's actually some research out there that says,

9:17 Alcoholic, you know, stop drinking altogether, never take another sip. But there's also seems to be people that control it by. No more than two drinks a day. You can't drink, you know, you can

9:30 only drink every third day. I, you know, they give them, they give themselves kind of this, what I'll call a moderation regiment. And it seems to work for

10:06 them. Any, any truth to that - Oh, there's definitely truth to that - Is that part of your spectrum - Well, the pub maybe It's part of the spectrum, but it's also part of something that's

10:08 controversial, which would be some version of harm reduction. In the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, there's no room for harm reduction. It's total abstinence. So the unintentional consequence of

10:08 that is someone would be ostracized from those programs because of that. I've worked with people who have had harm reduction, and I look at how their lives are,

10:17 because they've got their relationships back, they're healthy, they're going to therapy, they're going to church, they're meditating, they're doing a lot of things that I suggest, and they're

10:25 thriving, but they wouldn't really be welcome back in those rooms. And someone in those rooms might criticize them, hey, you don't have a sponsor, you don't work in the steps, it's no matter a

10:35 time before it's gonna blow up. And my other, when I put the overall wellness and balance, I'm applauding them, but the typical structures for them would be, they could have some finger wagging

10:48 to that. There's a great author by the name of Gabor Matte, who talks about that.

10:55 And I think my whole theme is addition and additional. So 12 Steps A, it works, it's a really good foundation, but it's also 2023, not 1939. So there's a lot of modern takes that are out there

11:14 that tend to get shunned. because fundamentally we're just gonna do the 12 step stuff, and there's nothing wrong with it. It works for many many people. So I'm not knocking the person it works for.

11:28 I'm looking out for the percentage of people that it hasn't worked for and offering something else, and everything tends to be funneled in here. So

11:37 there's there's something that could be more robust for what for a want of a better word. A harm reduction to me is a good thing. Let's do this. Maybe maybe the way to go through kind of your ideal

11:51 approach is I'll start asking questions kind of

11:57 just as a person. Number one, maybe to start with how do I know I have a problem or not? So to me, I think the

12:08 one of the hallmarks of addiction is not knowing you have a problem. Okay, so despite having negative consequences losing a job, getting fired, going to couples therapy, you still continue to

12:22 drink. So it's sometimes hard to, it's not as obvious to the person as it is to their wife, for

12:33 example. In the 12 steps, it's, Is my life unmanageable? Does my drinking or drug use make my life unmanageable? And that's usually the measure, but it's hard to admit that - Yeah - It's a hard

12:45 thing to admit, it's a hard thing to ask for help. There's a lot of shame around it - Totally - So a lot of people just kind of suffer in silence, but it is chronic and it does get worse. So the

13:01 curve looks like this. And there's a lot of good help available.

13:09 But yeah, it's, sometimes it's not as obvious to the person. So I'm sitting there and my wife is saying things like, why do you have to get drunk like that? I'm showing up late to work hung over

13:21 sometimes. So I get the inkling, something's wrong. I'll sit there and wake up in the morning, oh my God, who did I taxed or whatever. So I start feeling that kind of stuff. Hard to admit I

13:36 have a problem, but there are at least some signs popping up I call you and say, hey, I'd like to talk. What's kind of the first thing we're doing under the guy approach or the meditate guy? The

13:48 meditation guy

13:52 approach

13:55 would be sort of triage

13:58 and also be very curious, right? Because sometimes you could go to a therapist's office, drink too much, go to AA, right? Sometimes it's a knee-jug reaction, go to AA.

14:15 go to treatment, and then you very quickly have to go, Hi, my name's Guy, I'm an alcoholic. And that may or may not be true.

14:25 So there's assessments to see whether you are. And certainly when you go into a drug treatment center, you're gonna have to check a bunch of the boxes to get in there, you can't really fake your

14:34 way in. But the other thing is to be curious, what else is going on? Like, do you have childhood trauma? Do you have depression? Are you drinking because you lost your job? Like a lot of events

14:51 happen. So I think it's to triage it with curiosity. Is there really a problem, and what could the solution be? Now, a lot of people that I work with have been to treatment multiple times. And

15:05 what my experience is, is it's the same menu over and over again. as much as drug treatment centers will differentiate that they're better than the rest, there's a lot of genericness to it. And a

15:20 lot of it stops working, a lot of it's stale. And sometimes within that, it's viewed as the person has a bad attitude, right? And a lot of it has to do with, I already know this and it hasn't

15:33 worked yet. But if I'm going in with just the drug angle, it's gonna be just the drug angle. My angle might be okay I can recommend a trauma therapist for you. Let me help you with your 11 step,

15:46 which is prayer and meditation, which is a lot of what I do. And a lot of the spiritual component of recovery, a lot of people who keep realizing that never gets any traction 'cause they've never

15:58 been led or guided. So a lot of what happens is a lot of talk about God and a lot of talk about spirit, but there's not a lot of people necessarily playing golf. A lot of people talking about golf

16:09 but not playing golf - Right And. You know, I'm gonna cut you off 'cause it's interesting you say that 'cause kind of my journey, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, you know, I

16:19 wind up getting separated from my wife and, you know, throw myself into a lot of therapy, throw myself into a lot of God with my priest Patrick, who you and I have talked about. And I think one

16:32 of the big realizations that I had during that period was, I was going to church 'cause I was scared I was gonna go to hell if I didn't - Right - And it's not religion. That's not spiritual. That's

16:44 not, that's not. And, you know, it really took Patrick working with me to say, Hey, there's this really cool dude named Jesus. And he actually wants to have a relationship with you. And I'm

16:54 not preaching to folks, but I just, this was my journey - Yep - And that was really important because what I found was I was drinking way too much and I was doing it when I was angry. And my

17:09 problem wasn't necessarily that I needed to drink every day. In fact, I would periodically just go, you know, links of time without a drink. It was having drink number three, drink number eight

17:22 happened. Right. Particularly when I was in a negative

17:27 point of frame of mind. And so being able to realize, hey, my ex-wife's approval is not what should give me my sense of self-worth. It became God It became religion

17:40 allowed me to, today, if I'm in a bad mood, I don't drink. I've just done. If I'm in negative framework, I still probably have a problem. I'm out having fun and drink three happens and a few

17:51 extra drinks happen that shouldn't, but at least I'm not drinking angry. Right. And that was really important for me, for my journey. Yep. And I think that's, you're an example of someone who's

18:03 balanced it and you would shift away from it. It no longer makes your life unmanageable, right? So that shift is commendable. It may not be welcome in the rooms, for example, but I applaud it.

18:18 The other thing is that you mentioned is you have Patrick. So you have a skillful guide to help you with your spiritual life. That's the majority of what my work is at the meditation guy is helping

18:30 cultivate some spiritual curiosity and getting some traction So not everyone is gonna be cool with going to church, for example, or cool with Jesus. So this is what happened. This is one of the

18:43 problems. So AA is actually one of the best things in the history of mankind

18:51 to stir people to move and explore spirituality. That like, and have the humility. I've done everything I could do and it still doesn't work, help greatest prayer ever helped. But we also live in

19:06 a culture. where church attendants who dipped below 50 in the United States for the first time ever. So a lot of people going to the Episcopal Church, for example, who are recovery people, like

19:19 Yuck or the church of their past Yuck. So they don't know what to do and they don't know what's offered in their culture. And that will limit them to, you know, maybe not drinking and going to AM

19:34 meetings, which is fine, but it's not enough for most people. It might be enough for some people.

19:41 So, and in my experience in recovery and working in drug treatment centers, I haven't met anybody, this is gonna sound a little bit rude. I haven't met anybody that I wanted to be my spiritual

19:55 director. I've had to find them, find them outside of that umbrella And

20:04 that's my truth.

20:06 Patrick's outside the umbrella. So I'll give you an example. I'm working with a guy who also is a friend of your friend's son's son. And his improvement in three weeks, four or five sessions, is

20:24 incredible. And all I've done is just kind of nudged him more in the spiritual direction. And meditation and read Eckhart Tolle and come to this church and meet me and try this and try that. And

20:38 he's super vigilant, he's always on time and he's completely woken up just from some gentle nudges, right? I didn't tell him not to go to AA. Keep going to AA and come see me. Go to AA and read a

20:54 book. Go to AA and read Gabour Montmata. Go to AA and do therapy and find some friends outside of that complex because it can get very enmeshed. and stale and he was stagnated as a 25 year old guy

21:10 in recovery who's been a treatment couple of three times and some of his buddies just though, did. And just the additional attention in addition to what he's learning to actually like in an AA

21:25 meeting you're not gonna talk specifically about Jesus. You're probably not allowed to do that. So there's no specifics. There's no real coaching And there probably shouldn't be, but you wouldn't

21:37 be where you are without your spiritual guide and spiritual coach. And that's what I try and do. It's not gonna work for everybody. But like sometimes we just need a nudge. Have you seen that

21:47 documentary Stutz - I have not seen Stutz - With what's his face? Jonah Hill and his therapist - I know, I haven't seen that - So Jonah Hill talks about, I want my therapist to tell me what to do

21:58 and all they do is listen to me. And then I want my friends to listen to me And all they do is tell me what to do. So his therapist just nudges him and loves him. And it's a really, really good

22:12 relationship. He's just nudging him, telling him some things to do. And that's all I do. It's not that A doesn't work, it's not that drug treatment sucks. My experience is it's not enough

22:24 because the success rates are actually pretty low. And that's kind of the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. I just like it to be better I don't like to see people dying. I don't

22:36 like to see people stuck. And there's many people who are not stuck. But just because it works for you doesn't mean that there's not a ton of people that it hasn't worked for yet. And I'm more

22:47 interested in helping that person - So, so may have a problem, triage, figuring out, you

22:57 know, potentially we need to get you on a religious path, spiritual discovery, potentially. dealing with childhood trauma therapists of some sort along out. What other things are you looking for

23:12 to kind of help a person - Well, here's what I know about every sort of ism or diagnosis in the DSM, right?

23:26 It's some sort of reaction to an underlying problem. So some people have the underlying trauma and they drink Some people cut, some people overeat, some people under eat. There's lots of evidence,

23:40 lots of women who get abused and raped put on weight. So is it a weight problem or a childhood abuse problem? So there's some sort of symptom on the outside. But like the way my brain works, if

23:57 you draw it back to sort of Kevin Bacon, the six degrees of separation, if you look at something like addiction, It's isolation and disconnection. All of it is some sort of disconnection. So the

24:09 greatest thing, in my opinion, about something like Alcoholics and Arms is connection. A home group, a group of people. But you can, people that it's safe. People who are your buddies that

24:20 you're happy to see. That community is one of the best aspects of it. But that doesn't mean that's the only community I can belong to. And I would encourage people who love that community, to

24:31 branch out into other communities, meditation community, a mountain biking community, a yoga community, a group therapy community, that you have more and more healthy people in your life than

24:44 just one group of people. Now some people who are Alcoholics, all they want to do is hang out with Alcoholics people. And that may work for them. It didn't work for me. That makes me go insane.

24:55 I need more variety of that. But the disconnection is really the problem we have to solve So it drives me crazy when we talk about Mexican drug cartels. and all of this, what's the cause? The

25:08 cause is you got quote, The greatest country in the world and people are so miserable that they're gonna do fentanyl instead of go ride their bike - Yeah - They're so alone that they're gonna do

25:19 fentanyl instead of go hang out with Chuck and Doug and some of your buddies and play golf. So this disconnection is what we have to also tackle in this, to get people connected to themselves,

25:30 reconnected to themselves and reconnected to others - And social media help that, hurt that, what's your take there - I think it's hard - My take is it, some people that might help their

25:44 self-esteem

25:48 to get some likes on Facebook.

25:51 I think there's a higher spiritual self in all of us that has to be found through not drinking, prayer, meditation, therapy. I'm a big fan of internal family systems therapy and to find out that

26:07 there's something in you that's not broken, right? And

26:13 I think what social media perpetuates is the false self. And that's, she loves me, she loves me. No, wow, nobody liked my new picture today. Wow, everyone's telling me I'm great. It's a bit

26:25 bipolar. And I think it's very needy and can be and can make people feel bad about themselves Yeah, you know, like superficial and the big, a big illusion that my externals will change me on the

26:42 inside. Like, oh, look how great I look today and that that's going to be massively transforming. It isn't. Well, I'm glad you said that because my take on it has been, you know, through all

26:54 the therapy I've had, all the self-help books I've read and all. I really do think Brene Brown nailed it in terms of it your sense of self-worth. and the only way to kind of fix that, deal with

27:07 that is talk about it. Shame hates words, right? And so what you just said, the external is gonna help the internal, it's actually the opposite. And it's me calling Patrick at three in the

27:20 morning, dude, I fucked up. And I need to tell you, and being able to share that with Patrick, and God bless Patrick, you know what he did when I shared something horrific with him? He said,

27:31 oh, that's nothing, I did this I'm like, dude, you're a priest. And he's like, I know, it's really bad. But God bless him for that. And I think social media actually discourages that because

27:44 of what you were saying. You wanna put out the perfect, you wanna put out the ideal, you don't wanna put out - You put out the ideal, you nailed it on the head. But the reason you're intimate

27:53 with Patrick is you know his dog's secrets, and he knows yours. You're not intimate with Patrick 'cause he's a great Episcopal priest and you're a top-notch businessman. the sharing your dirty

28:04 laundry is what created intimacy with Patrick. And when we're social metering, we're

28:10 afraid of any of our dirty laundry. And with good reason, you get crucified in our society with any dirty laundry - Yeah - What I try and do in my life, I have multiple chucks and dugs, and I

28:26 intentionally hang out with people who can bear my dirty laundry And not everyone can do that, it's too intimate. But man, you better find some people who you can. So tell me whether you agree

28:39 with this stat or not. So I'll say it as a statement, but it's really a question to you is, I think if you can get to the point where you're going to share the deepest darkest secrets about

28:50 yourself to somebody, whoever you choose to share that to 999 of the time is going to say, Hey, man. Yeah. Me too. Or thank you for sharing with me. If you Yep - We're not that stupid. If

29:05 we're gonna share with somebody, we've thought about it, it's someone we trust, et cetera. And so that's why I always tell people, don't be scared to do that - No, we're taught to be scared,

29:16 but because we don't wanna be shown up. But the truth of the matter, we all live in the same culture and have a lot of the same damage. We're all wounded, right? Especially the squeakiest, clean

29:28 people. They're wounded too And to know that we're not terminally unique, one of the things that happens in addiction is people think they're the lamest son of guns in the history of mankind. And

29:40 like, we're all that lame. We're all that broken. So to have that common humanity, it's like the meditation, the loving kindness meditation, when you give love to every Tom Dick and Harry and

29:52 the lady at Starbucks and the lady who cleans your house and a president you may or may not like and get out of yourself and realize, This is just the human condition. and the symptom of the human

30:03 conditions of reading, under reading,

30:07 drinking, whatever that may be. I think, especially for men,

30:13 this safety aspect is something I wanna talk about because I think, I don't think it's

30:22 safe, in many cases, for men to be authentic 'cause you get hammered for it.

30:28 And I wanna actually talk about my friend who killed himself, who was the president of the Houston Texans for over 20 years. I really wanna talk about that because I don't know him that well as an

30:40 adult, but he was my roommate, we played soccer at Clemson, we won the national championship in 1984. Here you have someone whose life looks perfect - And this was Jamie Roo - Jamie Roo's - He was

30:52 president of the Texans, president of the dynamo, right - Yeah, for a long time, sports Houston executives - Many, many

30:59 years Nice to scout on the planet too.

31:05 Yeah, he could have been the president of the United States, but he's an archetype, right? And you may have some of this when you were your in your big shot oil job, right? No one's going to

31:19 think anything's wrong with Chuck.

31:23 You think anyone thinks anything wrong with Jamie? Right? You think anyone think anything's wrong with the meditation guy? Oh, you're supposed to spiritually groovy, dude I'm a human being,

31:34 right? And I don't know Jamie's story, and I don't want to know all the ins and outs, but

31:43 I've got a funny feeling if he had some dogs and guys to talk about where he could let his God down. Can you imagine being the president of the Houston Texans? Everyone looking at you? You got your

31:54 God up and your whole reality is your God up. What about what you are that's not that? And he may never have found who he was that's not that.

32:04 But that's an epidemic. One of the highest suicide risks rates in the United States is 50 plus your old white dudes,

32:15 right? Which you and I are and Jamie was. We've done what we thought would make us happy and we're miserable. How come I got two kids, I got a wife, I live in West U, what's the problem? And

32:27 it's an underlying existential problem that never gets solved by managing your ex-tunals. Because if that was the truth, rich people wouldn't kill themselves. Rich people wouldn't go to drug rehab,

32:40 rich people wouldn't get divorced. You know, in one instance, maybe you have more money to be more distracted to run away from your pain, which is what all of it is. Addiction's running away from

32:50 pain. Eating potato chips is running away from pain. Of being raped or abused or whatever. Running away, running away. And we gotta stop hiding and come back in and be real. And I think we live

33:03 in a culture that is starting to embrace people being real, like you. Chuck Yates with the shotgun Willy T-shirt, the meditation guy being real. I used to work for AIM here in Houston. I used to

33:15 have a fancy career and I was miserable. It didn't work. And that's, there's a lot of people who need help. There's a lot of people who need help, for sure. Yeah

33:29 And the other thing I will say, because one of the messages I always push is, find that person that you can go talk to. And if you choose them 999 of the time, it's going to be great because

33:40 you'll get it off your chest. Shame hates words. The other thing I will say is when you're choosing that person, there are no preconceived notions on who that person is. I mean, if you're CEO of

33:52 the Houston Texans, you don't have to go sit down with the CEO of the Dallas Cowboys. You could go sit down with the janitor 'Cause people that have really high emotional IQs and will be empathetic

34:07 and will listen and not judge come in all shape, color, sizes, everything - Yep, and I personally surround myself with emotionally intelligent, spiritually skillful people that feed my soul and

34:25 give me energy and love me and allow me to show them my dirty laundry. Because what's true is I'm

34:36 broken and I'm not. I'm really smart and I'm really dumb. I'm really connected and I'm really disconnected, both. And it's hard to find people who can bear it, but we need to do it. And there's

34:50 lots of ways to do it. Like that we talked about this loosely in the oil field. A lot of those guys will feel the stigma of going to a therapist, right? New research is saying maybe the best thing

35:04 in therapy is not to give someone a DSM diagnosis. You know, my angle is to be, we all have to - What is DSM - The diagnostic manual for bipolar, low-end depression. Check these boxes, then you

35:16 have that - Gotcha - And like - Don't tag them as something - Yeah. Right. As an evolution, this is all evolving. Recovery should be evolving. There should be room for Gabul Mata in recovery

35:31 And this evolution of labeling someone, I am an alcoholic. Whatever you put after, I am a sacred. Maybe that's not a good idea. Now for some people, they will say, If I didn't do that, I'd be

35:42 dead. But some people, by doing that, it kills them, because that's all they think they are. So there's a - There's a - There's an evolution. It might be a coach. It might - Like I do, like,

35:56 coaching in spiritual direction I have a master in counseling, but I don't have a license. I have, I have, I took my licensing exam. I have more wiggle room as a coach. I triage people. If you

36:07 have a bunch load of therapy, I'm not gonna tackle it, but I know people to send you to, and I can help you with other things. So I think coaching is just not for the rich. I think sometimes

36:20 maybe people in the oil field might rather talk to me than someone who's gonna put them in a diagnostic box. Now some people need the diagnostic box and the medicine and it works for them But I've

36:31 met tons of people who didn't like the therapists and it didn't work for them. Just as there's tons of people that AA works for, I've met tons of people who are bored with it and it hasn't worked

36:41 for them. Can both be true?

36:44 So I think, you know, when you're ready to get some help, there's many ways to be helped - And I'll say this again as a statement, total chuck axiom. So I'm making this up just based on my own.

37:01 kind of thoughts and journey and all that. I have always said, 'cause people say, oh, I don't believe in counseling or I don't believe in therapy, I'm not gonna go. I've always said, if you can

37:14 go to your best friend, if you can go to your priest, if you can go to whoever and say, all your deepest, darkest secrets, then yeah, I agree, you don't need therapy. 'Cause I think 75 or 80

37:27 of it is literally just saying it out loud And I think that's what the therapist does. They peel back the onion to make you say it out loud. But then there's clearly 20 of, okay, now that we've

37:38 talked about it, let's do treatment and all, but I think it's much more just say it out loud to someone you trust and all - Well, I don't disagree with that. And also, some of therapy is putting

37:51 the fire out. I'm better to work with you after the fire has been put

37:57 out and help you thrive. The most important thing is the relationship you have with the person. It's not the amount of knowledge they have. So sometimes if therapy doesn't work, you didn't jive

38:09 personally with that person. So the most important thing is to connect with someone. And if you're connected, you might be able to unload your secrets.

38:18 But the relationship is the most important thing. And it can also evolve, right? You may not need high level therapy,

38:29 after 18 months with your therapist, they should probably let you go at some point. Hey, you're a good chuck. And then you might work with me for thriving. You might work with me for meditation.

38:37 You might be like, Hey guy, I'm gonna get five or six of my friends together with you once a month and we're gonna have a really tight container where we can talk like you and I are talking and have

38:47 a safe container for Chuck and his boys. Right? That's one of the things I like to do too, create those containers. So if you're stuck, maybe it's time to look for something different. Yeah.

38:59 You know, some people are not stuck in their addiction. They're good. So they don't, they don't need guy. But there's plenty of people who are stuck who are looking for something different. And

39:08 it could be therapy. It could be trauma therapy. It could be the mankind project. It could be going for a walk, buying a mountain bike, reading the Bible, having someone teach you how to

39:17 meditate. The other thing I'll say that I'll get your, your take on, because it literally happened. It literally happened to me yesterday.

39:27 Friend of mine joined me at church. We're walking out. I was like, Hey, you and Patrick go grab coffee. And my buddy's going through some stuff. And so anyway, they went and had coffee. And my

39:40 buddy texted me, Hey man, the stranger effect is real. Yeah. He goes, I don't know what it was. I just poured myself out to Patrick and he was great and all that. I actually, you know, like I

39:51 truly believe you ought to figure out the person you trust and love to share your, your dark secrets with. I also think it's if you find a stranger now, there's more likely the outcomes that

40:03 somebody will be, who the hell are you or whatever? But I think most people are generally good - Yeah, I agree with you - Well, and also think about it, you were a stranger to me - Yeah - And you

40:12 told to me because of our mutual friend - Yeah - So

40:17 I think when you've done some work, you've done some work, you're a wounded healer and your level of being is transformed to a level that that person would listen to you and you did what Stutz did,

40:32 you gave him some direction and meet with Patrick.

40:36 That's therapeutic. That might change that guy's life for the rest of his life. Just a simple nudge, join me at church, read this book. I can't tell you how many people that have thanked me for

40:48 the help that I've given them because they read this book, they do the breathing exercises when they're stressed out. They have a relationship with God They found a partner who's spiritual.

41:00 So we tend to, excuse me, we tend to give our power away to Joel Olstein, for example, and other people, Patrick.

41:11 But really, a good guide or mentor or helper is showing you you. So unless you were not new and improved, your friend at church saw something in you that's actually in him And what skillful people

41:28 do like yourself and Patrick is, Hey man, you can be happy and joyous and free like me. You're not seeing me, you're seeing you. And there's something in them that knows there's something there.

41:38 And then you're attractive, you're not promoting it. They sense your level of being that you've done some work. This guy can help me. And it's a spiritual nudge. And that only happens 'cause

41:48 you're wounded like them. And hey, if it can work for a wanker like me,

41:56 If it works for you and I, it will work on anybody. Let me help you - Let me throw out one more thing just 'cause I think, I think you've done a really good job on it, but I wanna beat the dead

42:06 horse or continue to nail away on it just for the audience. So demystifying therapy. So, you know, I've had tons of therapy. I actually call it the last four years, three and a half years,

42:24 hadn't been in therapy and Patrick has kind of functioned in that role.

42:30 And anyway, I started dating this girl. We dated for six months, she broke up with me, said, Hey, you're not engaged. I don't even think you like me. I can't really tell. Maybe go deal with

42:42 all my bullshit. I'm actually doing a three or four episode podcast series on this called Chuck Yates Needs a Wife. Equal parts serious me, what I went through, thinking through, okay, since the

42:56 divorce, I've never really dated anyone beyond four months. Why is that? You know, so I'm going to do serious stuff and then there's going to be Saturday Night Live juvenile humor in it, just

43:07 because that's me, right? Yeah, right. So it's going to be this weird mix of stuff. But anyway, so we wound up getting back together and she calls me her little 180. She's like, I don't even

43:17 recognize you. I'm like, well, I went and dealt with my bullshit for you And so we're doing great knock on wood. But what was interesting about that is as part of that, I was like, okay, I got

43:28 some issues. And if I screw this up, it's going to be because of the baggage I bring in. So I get a therapist and literally I've met with this therapist twice. The first meeting, you know,

43:40 you're your standard hour, right? I kind of walked through everything and the therapist really didn't say much. He was asking some questions all along the way I laid out in more detail what I just

43:50 told you. And I just said, look, I've got so much in the way that trust issue baggage, that that's what I wanna work on so that I don't screw this thing up. And what was amazing is the therapist,

44:04 literally in the last two minutes said, you know how we're gonna do this? We go, what's that? And she goes, she goes, we're just gonna assume you're gonna get betrayed. Let's just assume it,

44:14 it's gonna happen. Let's make it not suck like the last time. What do we need to do there? It just literally changed my whole thinking I was sitting there going, oh my God, I'm gonna get betrayed

44:25 again. And all this, all that conjures up and all two, oh, it's gonna happen. How do we not make it suck? Well, we got through it last time by God, working on Chuck, all that. And I mean, I

44:36 almost feel like a million bucks since then. And I just say that to the audience because, you know, people have this big, huge negative connotation about therapy and all it is. literally said,

44:52 Mang, let's look at it a different way - Yeah - And I think it changed my outlook. I felt so much better the last two and a half, three weeks - Well, I think she's very skillful.

45:04 There's gonna be people who like Chuck Yates and who don't. There's gonna be people who think you're brilliant, people who think you're idiots, same with me. I think you have to be discerning when

45:12 you do therapy and interview people. I think you've done a lot of work up until that point, which get you some super extra traction And it's an attitude of patience and curiosity that like, I'm

45:30 gonna keep on going 'cause there's plenty of Chuck Yates's who still think everything's okay 'cause I got a big house, I got some money, it's all good. There's nothing wrong with me. The humility

45:39 to know there's something wrong and ask for help and continue. Because here's the other thing that I've noticed, and this is the cautionary tale for you, happens with alcoholic and drug addict

45:49 people all the time. They start to get feeling good, feel like a million bucks. So I don't need my medicine anymore. I don't need to go therapy. I don't need to talk to that wanker guy. And I

46:01 should just go kind of stale. I don't need to go into any AA meetings. I got a new girlfriend, a new job, everything's cool. And kaboom. And the gremlins can come in. So I think your vigilance

46:13 is good. It's a lifetime commitment. There's some trial and area Just like you have to advocate when you're in hospital to get the K you need, you have to advocate with therapy. So the way I have

46:25 phrased that is, because some people look at therapy as triage. Oh, I'm doing poorly, I need to get a therapy. I actually say, yeah, you need triage. That's not going to do much. Actually,

46:38 when you're in a good place, that's when you have a lot of therapy. Because then you can really develop healthy skills and tools. So for you, one of the answers probably would be when things are

46:47 all hunky-dory with your girlfriend to go to couples therapy.

46:53 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

46:58 Yeah.

47:08 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

47:24 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

47:41 Yeah.

47:49 Yeah. with some of your friends, that's money right there. Well, you don't have a PhD, you know,

47:54 LPC. Does it mean that you don't know anything? You know a lot. I know a lot. So the thing, the most important thing is, especially in a relationship, is that you're both doing your work. So

48:09 like, if I was your girlfriend, knowing what I know about you now, and I was - Well, you've been winking at me the whole time - Well, I know, but okay - Nudge, nudge, wink, wink You don't see

48:18 what's going on under the table either. But, oh wait, I got flustered there. Anyway, she would probably applaud your level of self care. And that might actually motivate her to take care of

48:32 herself. So think about it, if you applauded her level of self care, and be like, wow, she's taking good care of herself, she doesn't, you do, you're probably gonna be okay. One of the

48:42 problems with addiction is we treat the addict, but it's a family issue So sometimes you're the problem, Chuck, 'cause you drink, I'm good. That's what a lot of code dependence is. You're the

48:51 problem and you focus on the identified patient who's clearly a problem 'cause he drinks too much, but that also prevents me from looking at my own stuff. So it takes a lot of courage to look at

49:04 your own stuff and take care of yourself. And the only reason I'm useful to chuck or dog or whoever is from the work I've done with myself and continue to do. And I'm always curious and exploring,

49:16 growing, all the therapy and stuff you've done beforehand made this skillful lady have traction. It wasn't failure. It all adds up to something going boom, that was an epiphany for me. And

49:29 continue, continue reading, continuing doing therapy, continue exploring because we are messed up. We need a lot of work over a lot of time. It's just not okay. I feel good now, it's all good

49:42 forever. You continue to take care of yourself at a high level And that's the gift you give me, your own health. your own wellness, right? And now I'm gonna listen to you 'cause I have the same

49:50 wounds - Guy,

49:56 this has been great. How do people reach you - If somebody wants to reach out -

50:05 I mean, I - You got a website linked in Twitter - It's actually under construction - Okay - So, I'm

50:13 saying they can, the best thing right now is just to text me - Okay - 5123783810.

50:20 And maybe I can help you, maybe I can help triage some things, maybe I can give you a nudge. And, you know, if I can't, it'll be obvious. And I might say, Hey, go see this person, go see

50:33 that person.

50:36 Yeah, that'd be probably the best way I start - Say the number one more time - 5 - Everybody grab your pen - I get a lot of people, well, 512-378-3810.

50:49 And you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn or Twitter or wherever - Yeah, I'm happy to share - I'm happy to share - I'm happy to share - And I do executive coaching and things like that as well.

51:02 Recovery coaching,

51:05 heavy dose of mindfulness. And I can meet you where you are. So I can work with people who are

51:14 fundamental Christian here And atheists here and people who are curious about Buddhism. I have an ability to meet you where you are and make suggestions that are sort of customized to you rather than

51:29 me telling you what to do. 'Cause I did this, you should do that. So I have some skill and some nuance there in terms of guiding and nudging for sure - Very cool, very cool - Cheers Chuck - Cheers

51:44 - Thank you for your time - Thank you for coming on - This is great. Absolutely. Standing invite to come back. Thank you. Cheers, brother. Cheers. Thank you so much.