Steven Hatcher. The Minerals Guy.
0:20 Dude, like how did we get together? Jeremy Funk. Funk. The Funkmeister. The Funkmeister. Yeah. He is such a good dude. I'm a big huge Jeremy fan. You know, I first met Jeremy in when I was
0:34 working for Sklar up in Boulder and he would come calling us with whichever software product he was selling in at the time. That's all I'm listening to, what do you want? Yeah, yeah. And we went
0:45 to eat at this
0:51 I can't remember the name of it, off the top of my head. And, you know, he's just kind of a fixture in Denver and we've actually gotten really tight over the past two years. But I'd love that guy.
1:04 Got a lot of respect for him. So my favorite funk story is, you know, his podcasting partner, Tim Loose, or God rest his whole past away. He's like, you know, he's like, And we had the
1:16 reception after the funeral at my house 'cause I lived down in Richmond near where Tim lived and I have the perfect house. My house used to be a wedding reception venue and stuff. And so anyway, I
1:30 have the perfect house for that sort of stuff. So Funk was flying in and he was gonna spend the night with me. And I had my two daughters and you know, with teenage daughters, you talk through
1:42 some things and Sarah to her credit was just like, Hey dad, I'm not sure I'm cool having somebody spend the nightin the house that I meet. I'm like, Hey, I get it, appreciate you brought it up.
1:52 I know Funk, but don't worry about it. So I called Jeremy and I'm like, Hey dude, good news, bad news. Good news, I got a place for you to stay. Maybe the bad news is you're spending the
2:02 nightwith my parents. That's what he told me, yeah. He's told me the story. So I take Funk over to my parents' house at midnight. My mom is still awake, she gets up Can I make you something to
2:14 eat? And anyway, those two were in the kitchen. I was just, I'm leaving. So I just left and I stayed up till six in the morning, just talking all that, which is totally, describes my mom and
2:28 funk. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. No, we, I'm a sober dude. I've been sober for a long time. Congrats. And me and funk, maybe funk's been really, you know, kind of outward
2:40 about his journey And, and yeah, man, it's, it's super cool to connect with somebody on, on that level. Cause it's, it's pretty deep, you know? And yeah, I just got, I got nothing but love
2:54 for him. Yeah. And super happy for his journey and the whole deal and funk futures and him stepping on his own. Yeah, not very cool. So the mineral guy. Yeah. What the heck is this? Oh man,
3:06 what is it? Yeah, you know, I, so I had an idea like two years ago and I went to my then partner. got a Matthew Montgomery who's just an awesome dude. He started, he was a landman in Shreveport.
3:22 He's from, you know, a little town south of Dallas and ended up in Shreveport taking leases for, he worked for a broker. It was Dale and they were putting, working for Aubrey, putting together
3:37 one of the official lease blocks in the Haynesville. And we got to know each other there and then ended up in Denver kind of on similar but separate paths and got together and we've been buying
3:47 minerals. And I said, you know what, dude, I was like, I'm going to make a YouTube channel. And he was like, about
3:55 what? And I was like, I'm going to talk about mineral rights. And he kind of looked at me like I had three heads and I went back and I started drafting some stuff up and I put myself in front of an
4:05 iPhone and I filmed the first video. And I actually got
4:11 Nicole who you got to work with. Yeah, Nicole Nixon. Speaking of great people. Yeah, she helped me kind of produce the first couple of episodes for Minerals Guy and then, you know,
4:23 it was basically, you know, me recognizing that there's just a total gap in the knowledge base for, you know, there's really nothing out there for Minerals. That's really kind of where it started.
4:36 And so the whole, you know, my thesis was, hey, I'm gonna put out authentic content with the intention of like helping to educate mineral owners. And my hope is that mineral owners will think of
4:50 me if they ever wanna sell their mineral rights. Right. Well, not only did that prove to be true, but the real magic happened, I guess it's been nine months when we started testing basically
5:03 targeted social media ads, right?
5:06 Where we pick a sandbox, where we wanna buy and we start showing folks minerals got content, right?
5:14 in a way that's different than when they get a flyer in the mail, right? Because not only, it's all about, you know, how do you provide value to somebody before you ask them for something, you
5:26 know? It's like, take me out to dinner first, you know? And so that's the whole idea is we're here, like we're mineral buyers, we make no bones about it, right? But we wanna be the good guys,
5:38 right? We wanna be the folks regardless of whether you just choose to transact with us, or whether you just choose to hold your minerals forever. Like that's, you know, your prerogative is a
5:49 mineral owner, but we're gonna be here to help you along that journey. And if part of that journey means that you're gonna sell, you're ready to cash your chips in, we wanna be the number one shop
5:60 that you come to. Right. Now the, 'cause I mean, and we've talked about a million times on the podcast, it's just crazy how when you look the power and the reach of the Internet. through social
6:14 media, how literally you can reach anyone on the planet. I mean, a lot of Musk is giving away internet access to tribes in Africa now. It's crazy they're all getting addicted on porn, but no, I
6:28 mean, you can literally reach anyone and that's how people consume content. And that's the greatest form of leverage we have these days and it's just amazing to me that every other industry has
6:42 embraced that, uses it in energy. You would think we're trying to steal people's kids or something, you know, ah, I can't do that. I can't make credit. It's true. It's true, you know? But I
6:54 mean, for the folks that are brave enough to do it, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a whole wide world out there, you know? And it's just, it's all about, you know, how do you find
7:06 your audience, right? just like you've found yours and Jeremy's found his, you
7:11 know. I set out to create an audience of mineral owners and to create content that is specifically focused to them, right? And it's
7:25 funny 'cause I talk to other buyers all the time and they're like, I hate social media and blah, blah, blah. I think it's the worst thing to happen.
7:35 And it's like so, you know? It's like the fact that you don't like social media
7:43 is it's really meaningless, right? Because this is the way that people are consuming media today, right? It's like, you know, the crazy thing is that like, I even find myself, like I'm not
7:54 sitting in my bed watching my TV, I'm sitting in my bed, you know, watching Netflix on my phone, right? And it's just these little screens that we carry around, you know, and the other thing is
8:08 it's the, Like now more than ever, you know, individuals. You don't have to be CBS or some major corporation in order to create content and reach an audience, right? It really is democratized
8:22 the process of media creation and consumption, right? And the world has changed, right? And, you know, I don't know, I saw the gap and I was like, you know what? If I don't do this, somebody
8:36 else is. And do I wanna be on a camera? You know, I talk to people all the time too. They're like, ah, I can never do that I could never, I could never, you know, make a YouTube video or be
8:45 on camera. I don't know how you do that. And it's just like, I don't particularly like doing it, you know, but there's a gap and there's an opportunity and it's the people that have the courage
8:56 to do it or gonna be the ones that get out there and take up space. You know what, I always say to people 'cause I have this conversation and I get passionate enough about it and if there's a bottle
9:07 of wine involved and it makes it a little easier, but, I'd tell people you can truly turn your life from outbounds 'cause I spent my whole career calling, right? Oh my gosh, so true. You know,
9:18 to in-bounds, people actually call you. Yes, yes. And when I convince them, they're like, Oh, okay, well, how do I start? And I go, Literally, you just start. Yeah. I mean, the other
9:29 amazing thing about social media and the internet is feedback loops are tight. You make something that sucks, people tell you that. Yeah, yeah. And if you make something that's good and you get a
9:38 lot of likes, you learn Okay, that may work, so you just start doing it. No, that's exactly right. I mean, it's, I mean,
9:47 yeah, I mean, I look back, it's funny because I'm like desensitized to like seeing myself on social media now. And I really don't, like, I've at first, I person that first video, you know,
9:59 and then it gets like no views or three views in a month. Oh, and it just sucks. And it's just all fortified by it, yeah. You know, and you look at yourself on camera you know, you just care so
10:10 much. I mean, it's just human condition, right? Right. We care about what other people think. And the reality of the world is that no one else is thinking about me. They're not thinking about
10:20 you. They're thinking about their own little, you know, their own problems and everything, you know, we're egocentric, you know, people. So it's like, if you can get over that and, you know,
10:31 kind of just get into a rhythm and don't quit, just keep going, you know, then there's a, and
10:38 going back to what you're talking about about inbounds, it's like my entire business model is inbound lead generation. I mean, that's pretty much what it is, right? We don't have to do cold
10:50 calling, you know, we pick an area, you know, we've figured out a way to be able to get ads into the feeds of the people that we want to buy, and then we just respond to increase, you know, and
11:03 so it's so much different, you know than, I don't know what you know about mineral buying, but it's very difficult. I know that I have no clue how it works. I mean, Carl Brinsick, he's one of
11:14 my dearest friends and we back to him when I was at Cane and we used to sit in board meetings and we'd go through what we were paying, why we were paying, all this sort of stuff, how the business
11:24 works and everything. I was always more confused at the end of each board meeting that my partner, Buddy Clark, just stopped letting me vote on things. Buddy was just like, Check, I got this,
11:35 stay away Yeah, you know, mineral buying is hard because you're trying to buy an asset from someone where 95 of the people that own them will never sell them, right? And nor do they want to. Yeah,
11:51 they were told by their grandfather. Don't sell your minerals. Never sell your minerals. And that's like, I make a lot of content about that, right? It's all about overcoming objections, right?
12:02 And helping people understand that the market a lot bigger, right, and a lot more sophisticated than it was. you know, 20 years ago when, you know, the sleazy landman knocks in your door or
12:13 knocks on your neighbor's door and swindles him out of his minerals, you know, right before the drilling rig shows up. I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot more sophisticated today, but it's still,
12:23 it is still like an uphill battle when you're, when you're trying to find opportunities because you're just trying to buy something that it doesn't cost these people anything to keep these minerals
12:33 on their balance sheet. Right So it's like, unless there's, you know, a specific need that they're trying to fill, right? Or that is the one thing I learned is it did seem like buying from
12:48 individuals, what I'll call kind of organic buying, much more driven by life events of the SARS kids going to college. Yep. Need a new washer and dryer, wrecked my car. Yeah.
13:04 As opposed to, Oh, oil's at an all-time high, I should be selling, or whatever. Look,
13:09 most of the time it is driven by life events, it's people
13:15 whose parents pass and the kids inherit and the minerals are in North Louisiana, but they live in California, they don't know anything about oil and gas, they just want a fair deal and they want
13:26 their money.
13:28 You do every once in a while, you get somebody that's sophisticated enough to say, Hey, there's been 10 wells that have been drilled on my property. The check that I'm going to get today is bigger
13:38 than it will ever be, and I would rather go take that money and go do something else with it. We definitely talk to people that are the same way, but I'm working with a guy right now who lives up
13:48 in Greeley, and his mom is a 133rd heir to this super prolific dairy farmer from back in the '50s
13:60 and '60s. You know, he owned over 10, 000 growth acres of land in, in Northern Colorado, you know, and, you know, the guy that I'm working with just wants to buy off, he wants to get the heck
14:12 out of Colorado, move to Kansas City and buy a farm and, you know, so, I mean, honestly, what, what I find is the more sophisticated the owner is and the more they understand about what it is
14:24 they own, the easier they actually are to transact with, right? Because it's, it's focused. Or get to know. Or get to know Totally. Because it's the folks that, you know, that own one acre,
14:35 you know, that think it's worth a million dollars, you know, those are the folks that are, are, are just impossible to deal with. Right. But yeah, our whole model is about, you know, it's,
14:46 it's really about building a brand at the end of the day, you know, and I think oil and gas companies in general have been pretty horrible about brand building, you know, and, and granted, like
14:56 there are some, you know, There are a lot of really quality, legitimate. you know, mineral acquisition groups that have a lot more experience than I do in the space. But at the end of the day,
15:07 you know, I want to build a brand that is ubiquitous with this, this is how mineral buying should be done, right? And if you want a fair deal, then you need to call Steven, right? Yeah. And so
15:19 that's what we're trying to do. And it's not something that happens overnight. I mean, it's really like, it's a, you know,
15:28 it's a process, right? It's a process. But through time as we're continuing to run ads and we're having
15:36 posts that are getting, you know, a lot of views organically, I mean, that's what starts to happen. So it's like, what did I start with? I started with, I think I'm gonna make some YouTube
15:46 videos and very quickly it morphed into, wow, I think I can build a brand, you know, that is gonna be able to, you know, Be ubiquitous in the minds of mineral owners for if you want. If you
16:00 want a fair deal, then this is how you go with it. So break this down for me, 'cause you and I are way on the progressive side of content in terms of the
16:13 so great, we build a brand, we can reach people and change hearts and minds, all that. So there's
16:22 a oil and gas company out there that wants to buy non-op interest There's a pipeline company that wants to sign up more customers and all, whoever, give them the bullet points on what you should be
16:38 doing to create content to build this brand. You're kind of lessons learned. The
16:46 first thing that I'll say is that oil and gas companies are kind of spoiled, right? Because we create products that the world, basically needs, and we just saw it in the market. Exactly, it's
16:58 not my key versus the data. Exactly, it's what am I getting less WTI or whatever. Yeah, yeah, you know, so I mean, it's like, from the producer side, you know, I think it's more about, you
17:11 know, how to, you know, social license to operate, right? It's more about, you know, it's not that they're, you know, ExxonMobil's not gonna be able to sell their product, right? There's
17:22 always gonna be a market for the product, but on the producer side, the pipeline side, it's more about, you know - Well, let's actually do this while we're bashing on it, and I don't mean to
17:33 bash on my EMP, brother, but you're right, it's, we create a product that just sold into the spot market. No need to advertise Adidas versus Nike. Also a bunch of freaking engineers. Yeah.
17:46 Yeah. And, you know, the single worst way to convince somebody of something is facts and reasons. Yeah, it's much more you got to have an emotional connection. You ask questions, you make them
17:58 laugh or you scare them. You know, you know, it's storytelling. And
18:04 so I think that's just a dangerous combination to try to think through creating a brand. But you're right. I mean, you hit on it, social license to function. Totally. We need that today, guys.
18:19 Yeah, there's, yeah, there's no doubt I mean, especially in places like Colorado, which is honestly kind of a sad story, because I feel like that I've been there 10 years and five, six years
18:31 ago, the industry was super vibrant. But it seems like election after election, all these ballot initiatives, they just continue to beat us down. And additionally, through all the mergers, I
18:42 mean,
18:48 there's just a lot less companies in Denver You know, which is kind of sad. It almost feels like by design. I mean, that's where the government wants to go. They want their oligopolies. They
18:58 want their four or five big companies that they can sit there. That's exactly right. If you're not, you know, a mid-cap, you know, or a major, you know, then the state of Colorado does not
18:60 want you, you know, like being
19:14 a small independent. I mean, there's a couple of them left. There's a couple of, you know, quality, you know, P-backed groups that are still doing business in Colorado, but, you know, for
19:23 the most part, you know, all the small mom-and-pops or toast, just, they're gone.
19:32 And so, yeah, I mean, so I don't know as much like from the operator producer side. I mean, I know that socialize is the operator's huge. I'm making it up, to build a brand, give me the bullet
19:42 points, whatever kind of company you are, what have you learned in terms of you doing this? Yeah, I mean, what I've learned is A, you just start You just start, the Nike. Just do it. You just
19:54 got to start making content, right? And the other thing is - Well, you know, the one thing I'll add to that, 'cause I say the same thing, I say, start making it. The other thing I say is, you
20:02 don't have to publish it. Just start making it. Yeah. You know, just making you shut friends and family and figure out what sucks, but in everything in life, you need reps. Totally. Well, and
20:13 I would say that like pressing, pressing, pressing record is very difficult, you know, because like I'm a perfectionist, right? And so of course I wanted to have, you know, my first, you know,
20:26 five scripts were just like, I had every word, just like totally scripted, you know? And, you know, you can have paralysis by analysis and oh, I need to change this to that and this to that.
20:37 And before you know it, you know, if you do 95 of the work, but you don't actually sit down and record it, then you've done nothing, right? So I mean, it's, you gotta sit down and press record
20:48 And then I'll never forget when I push publish on that first YouTube video. Like you get to the screen where it's like, are you
20:58 sure you want to publish this? You know, in my heart's racing, you know, but it's now it's just like, I don't even do it anymore. Like I got, I got a group of people that I make the videos, I
21:09 load them to a Google drive. I don't even see, I don't even see the videos before they get posted most of the time. You know, so it's, it's all about reps You know, I mean, the other thing that,
21:20 that I'll say to is
21:24 when I first started making content, it was about me and what I wanted, you know? And it was all about, basically I just filmed a 12 minute sales pitch, you know, for why mineral owners should
21:36 sell their mineral rights. You know, and don't get me wrong, there's, there is a place for harder calls to action, you know, in content, right? Because we are doing it for a purpose But at the
21:47 end of the day, you have to make something that is of value in order to get them to consume it, right? And so if it's all about what you want, right, as the content creator, you know, then that
22:01 doesn't necessarily align with whatever it is that audience you're trying to reach wants, right? So you got to do a little bit of soul searching and figure out, you know, what do these people need?
22:13 You know, what are their problems? You know, what are they trying to solve for? And then you make content around that, right? And then that's the content
22:22 that does the best, right? Oh, the way I think about that is you need to be a faut leader. Yeah, I think we're kind of saying the same thing there. 'Cause I can come on and go check it, Sisis,
22:35 and nobody gives a shit, but, you know, if you bring on an interesting guest who's talking about how to build a brand, man, people are gonna go, Gosh, this is cool, I wanna watch this. Yeah,
22:44 yeah, no, totally, totally And look, it started with,
22:49 yeah, it just started. you know, and then it comes and then you get a logo and then you build a website. Like I built my first website on Wix for 600 bucks, you know, and we're getting ready to
22:59 do like a full rebrand with a website that I probably spent way too much money on, but it's gonna be awesome, you know? So you start small, you start, and it just kind of, it's like a snowball,
23:09 you know, and it's like a flywheel, and especially with,
23:13 you know, with YouTube, for example. Like it's really freaking hard to grow on YouTube, you know? It is starting from scratch and building a successful YouTube channel, and I'm not even, I'm
23:23 not there, like by any stretch of the imagination. But, you know, I know that it's going in the right direction, and, you know, you just keep going, and you just keep getting better, and you
23:35 keep making content. But it is not, you know, the idea that you're gonna post one video, and it's gonna go viral, and then you have instant success, and, you know, all this business, you know,
23:46 maybe that would happen but that kind of stuff never happens to me. Well, you know, it's consistency. Well, you know, if I don't, so I usually drop my podcast Wednesday morning and I promote it
24:01 between seven and eight am. No idea why, but all the algorithms on social media, that's when my quote unquote release does the best. So I just, I do it. I go one guy, if Wednesday at 10 am I
24:16 haven't released the podcast, I get a text saying, dude, I'm about to go get on the treadmill. What the hell? Yeah, where is it? Yeah, so people, people kind of build their, their schedule
24:27 around you. So the, you know, the, the, the just do it. And then the number two is that always says consistency. You know, if it's Tuesday, Thursday, if it's, you know, five times a day,
24:38 whatever it is, pound away. Yeah, no, that's right. And mine, mine's a little bit different because, you know, I'm producing videos, you know.
24:50 for YouTube, but I've got a gal now that helps me draft all my scripts and stuff like that, and I sit down every other week, and I'm filming, I'm filming five or six videos. And so this latest
25:01 group that I joined there are like, No, we're gonna produce it. At least one video a week. It's not
25:09 a couple this month, and then you take a break, and then a couple more the next month. It's all about just rhythm and routine and reps constantly getting in front of the camera. You just get more
25:19 and more comfortable with it. 10, 000 hours. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I'm not there yet, but hopefully by the time I get there, we'll be in a pretty good spot. Yeah, no, I sit there and
25:32 listen to my first 50 to 75. I gather and just mortify it. Oh my God, not that I'm much better now, but it's just like, Oh God, did I really say that? So give me something that's surprising.
25:47 Either in a good way or give me something that's surprising
25:53 in a bad way. About making content? About making content. Oh man.
26:00 You know,
26:03 I'll throw one at you, just kind of to let you
26:09 keep thinking about it and stuff.
26:12 I always thought that I was the most fascinating person on the planet, right? And so, you know, I would have a guest on the podcast and it would do, you know, however many downloads and then
26:27 other ones wouldn't do as well and I could never figure it out and I was sitting there talking with Colin about this. I'm kind of like, you know, if I have a young energy finance guy on, those are
26:37 my most downloads. You know, that's usually where I get it. But, you know, I had country music singer Lindsey L on, you know, I did a podcast on me. Kennedy assassination, I go,
26:47 and this is where, you know, I don't understand why those don't download as well. And Colin was like, all right, you arrogant prick. But, you know, he was like, look, you know, when it
26:58 comes to energy finance, you can arguably be an expert there, you know? So when somebody wants to see or hear about energy finance, Chuck Yates, okay, that makes a lot of sense. When you have
27:12 country music singer, Lindsay Allen, you're now in an entertainment bucket where you're competing against Adam Sandler's last movie. Totally. You know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of
27:23 always, that surprised me 'cause I ultimately thought the driver of downloads on the podcast was gonna be me and what people thought about me. And it really is. It's gonna have to do with you.
27:35 Yeah, it's the subject matter, you know? To your point, I want to give these land on or these mineral owners, something of value to them. Uh, that, that was kind of the, the surprising thing
27:49 to me when, uh, when I worked through it. Yeah, you know, it's, um, you know, oddly enough, like some of the best performing organic videos that I have were, or went out with, when I was on
28:03 location. Yeah. So I was, I'm a partner in a, in an op, an operated package up in North Dakota. And I just flew up there and brought a camera with me And for whatever reason, like pump jack
28:16 moving in the background, you know, and I don't know, I don't know what it was. But I mean, that, that video got like over a million views on TikTok, which is nuts and it's just like totally.
28:27 So I mean, honestly, what I should be doing is filming every video that I make and I need like a pump jack in my backyard that I can just go green screen. Yeah. Exactly. But you know what I think
28:38 that actually is, is, is a lot of things we talk around here You know, people are like, Well, what am I gonna say about it? I'd say literally just document things that you do. 'Cause people
28:49 will find it fascinating like, to me how private equity firms charge management fees is like this no-brainer mundane thing that everybody on the planet who gives a shit. Man, I talked about that on
29:01 a few podcasts, through the roof numbers, through the roof engagement, people texting, Oh my God, thank you for telling me that. So I mean, you know, the same thing It's like, Hey, here's a
29:11 pump, Jack, here's how it works. Totally. You know, here's something really simple,
29:22 you know? Here's how we build roads here and stuff. I mean, literally just documentation, authentic real stuff. Yeah, no, no, no, that's exactly. And honestly, I'd love to do more of that,
29:27 you know? But I mean, honestly, like a lot of my days, I'm just, you know, sitting in my office, you know, doing economics on a deal or talking to mineral owners But honestly, I should just
29:39 put a camera up in the corner
29:43 You should, 'cause you have, you negotiate, or talking to a mineral owner on the phone about an issue, and let's say you worked out buying it or something, and it's like a three-minute clip of
29:55 this, that. I mean, you need to get their permission before you put it out there, but people would freaking love to see that. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Yeah, you know, one of the other things
30:04 that we're hyper-focused on, that, I mean, not a lot of mineral companies do well, is really kind of documenting your success. Like, what I mean is like social proof, right? Getting reviews
30:20 from people that you transacted with, you know? And I mean, it's like every, you
30:26 know, mineral acquisition company's website, right? There's like a standard, you know, field with a tumbleweed blowing, you know? And here's who our equity sponsor is, and then you go to
30:38 management, and then there's four or five by it. and that's literally every single mineral acquisition company that there is, you know? So it's in my business, it's about building as much trust
30:51 as I can with the mineral owner before I ever get them on the phone, right? So yeah, I mean, that's something that we're leaning into is like video reviews. Like, I just got a guy to give me my
31:02 first video reviews. You better believe that we're going to turn that into an ad, right? That we show to folks and say, hey, look, here's a real person that we transacted with. And, you know,
31:13 that has so much more, you know, has so much more weight to it, right? And even me sitting in front of a camera. I mean, it's, now they call it UGI, user generated, UGC, user generated
31:26 content, is way more impactful when you're selling products, you know, on social than it is just the company, you know, marketing, you know, this bottle of water. So you need to see, you know,
31:38 a good review. So when I get into a city and. or should I go eat, you know? Totally, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
31:46 Very cool. All right, so take me to minerals, run me through your pitch on why minerals, why
31:58 should people settle you?
32:02 Man, all right. So basically, I mean, our whole deal is that
32:08 we don't promise that we will always be the hybrid, but we're always fair, you know? And I think that right there is
32:16 one of the biggest objections that we get when we're talking to mineral owners, is people just do not wanna get screwed, you know? Because minerals are not like, you know, they're not like real
32:28 estate, you know? You can't go to Zillow and pull up your house and see within 30 seconds, within a standard deviation what your house is worth, right? minerals are just their their their It's
32:42 just more complicated to put a value on it. And there aren't any tools that can help mineral owners forecast the value of their wells effectively. And so there's just an inherent distrust because of
32:59 that. And then there's the whole history of NeverSell and Johnny down the street got swindled by that sleazy landman and came through and bought his minerals for100 an acre. And now they're worth50,
33:16 000 or whatever. And so what, you know, that's the big thing for us is it's, it's, you know, we treat people like humans, you know, we're not 49 floor, you know, private equity. You come in
33:31 and we're going to talk to you like you're a human being, right? And at the end of the day, you're not obligated to us to do anything, you know, we're going to give you the best price that we can
33:41 give. that we can pay, we'll tell you what it is. And if you don't want to sell, that's fine. If you want to sell to us, then we'd be happy to earn your business. And so it's just, we
33:53 shoot people straight. We're honest. We tell them the truth about the value. We don't hide the pickle. In terms of, if there's a rig that's a mile next to your property and there's six permits on
34:05 your property, we're gonna tell you about it We're not gonna try to
34:11 get value out of that deal at your expense, 'cause at the end of the day, it's like there's still plenty enough meat on the bone for me to make a very good living and to make excellent returns for
34:21 myself and my partners without me just absolutely ripping someone's face off. Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. My dad, there's a long time family, and my dad gets a lot of, I mean, it was
34:39 ridiculous. he gets100 a year off of something, I mean, nothing. And he got a, got an offer for seven grand. And I was like, okay, I go when the guy calls, just ask him, say, okay, you
34:53 know, is there a permit? You know, somebody drill them well. And it was interesting. He got, you know, very much the used car salesman. Oh, you know, no, we just really like this bubble,
35:04 bubble, blah, blah, blah. And you know, of course, working for a private equity firm with ton of engineers and ton of engineering techs. I'm like, all right, well, you go pull the permits in
35:15 there. Of course, there was a big, huge, well-permitted, right? Yeah, yeah. On the thing, but yeah, and it was interesting because my engineering tech came back and said, you know, I don't
35:28 think I'd sell that thing for 7, 000 years. Got to be at least 25. I mean, that's going to be a monster while on stuff. And dad was amazed But I got to see. And dad's a smart dude, but he's a
35:40 doctor. Totally. But I kind of got to see the other side of that just watching him listen to his questions. Yeah. And you know, it's funny because I actually did a deal with a used car salesman
35:51 last week. Except he was the, he's the seller. And I was like, Oh my God, this is going to be the hardest thing ever. Like, cause this is, uh, you know, you can't, you can't bullshit a
36:01 bullshitter, you know, and, uh, and honestly, he told me he was like, look, you shot me straight He's like, this is how I like to do business. And, uh, you know, he, he, you know,
36:11 basically I matched a bit he had from another party and he's like, I'm going to do business with you. Right. So it does, it does make a difference. Yeah. You know, just the, the, the, you
36:21 know, people don't want the used car salesman experience. Right. I mean, they, they do not want, you know, the, the slick back hair and somebody that's hiding the ball about activity in the
36:35 area No, I don't know, it's just, no, we're just direct. I mean, it is what it is, you know. Here's what we think they're worth, or here's rather, here's how much we can pay. And if you
36:47 want to trade, then let's trade. And if not, that's okay too. We're just gonna move on down the road. And we're gonna look at - We're gonna look at the baby and sell half to me. Yeah, exactly.
36:57 And we always, we always, you know, that's always an offer. And a lot of people do that, a lot of people, you know, a lot of people sell long, you know So as your process were internally, how
37:09 do you come up with your number? Well, it's, you know, here's what I'll say about that. The hardest part about the minerals business is finding the deal. Yeah. There are a lot of really awesome
37:21 tools out there for valuation today. You know, combo curve is definitely kind of the leader of the pack, but there's a number of other, you know, tools out there and that's what I use. I use in
37:33 Verus and combo curve You've got it. You've got. engineers working for you, pulling data. Totally, forecasting. Yeah, and don't get me wrong, like I'm a lawyer, landman, but
37:46 I can get the number pretty damn close. Depending on the size of the deal, sometimes it's more obvious, like if it's like the deal I was telling you about and the DJ is over like 30 DSUs. I'm
37:59 gonna need some help with that. Just putting a value to all the different kind of categories of acreage. But yeah, I mean, look, sometimes it's more simple if it's a 40 acre tract in one DSU and
38:11 they've got, it's in DeSoto, Paris, there's one,
38:14 Hanesville, well, and then you're modeling for four or five more. It's pretty easy to kind of get to that valuation with the tools that are available today.
38:27 But what kind of rates are a turner people shooting to get these days in minerals? his back. Like, I never understood. I always thought minerals were so way overvalued. Totally. Every year,
38:40 every year they traded for more and it was kind of like, at some point, I just have to admit I'm wrong and I don't get it. At some point, I had talked myself into, if we buy PDP for PV zero, so
38:55 we're gonna get our money back and they're drilling in the area, we'll make some money. I had talked myself into that and then it seemed like the market blew past that You know, I haven't looked at
39:06 a mineral deal in five years. You know, it's interesting because, you know, we're in probably the sixth or seventh inning of shale,
39:16 you know, and so it's a lot of deals, like that whole view that you just talked about where it's, you know, PDP, PV zero or, you know, whatever, right? We're betting on the come, right?
39:27 We're gonna buy this cash flow and we know that, you know, four or five or 10 or 20 more wells are coming. The reality of the situation today is that there aren't that many areas where you can go
39:42 in and that is purely the case, right, where there's one stick in a unit or it's fully undrilled and you can pay like a per acre type figure and get to the types of returns you're talking about in
39:57 excess of 30 IRRs So yeah,
40:02 I mean, there's a blend, you know, on PDP, you know, we're trying to buy between PV 15 and PD 20, you know, we're not, you know, we're not a public company with public company cost of capital,
40:16 especially with interest rates, you know, where they are today, you know, I don't know how a deal could trade it at a PDP
40:24 PV 10, you know, unless there was, you know, a bunch of sticks that we're going to get drilled But yeah, I mean, look on, on, you know,
40:33 permits. You know, ducks, we call them whips, wells in progress. I mean, you're modeling, you know, probably a PV-15 to PV-25, I would say. And then on acreage has got to be north of 30. So
40:48 Murrow's finally got same. Well, I don't know about that, it's still, it's still pretty damn hard to buy them though, you know? And there's a lot of, and it really depends on where your
40:58 capital's coming from too, right? I mean, if you're in like a traditional private equity structure with a double promote, I mean, what I have learned is that you have to buy it really cheap,
41:10 right, in order to be successful. If it's, you know, kind of private money, you know, friends and family, you know, you can be a little bit more aggressive, and then certainly if you've got,
41:24 you know, public company money, those guys can pay more than anybody. Right. I had a deal in Glasgow County, Got it. Found me on YouTube. Awesome guy. lived on the western slope of Colorado.
41:36 He had 20 ducks on his property, case to bottom. And he was just like, these minerals are never gonna be more worth more than they are right now. They called me and I was like, you're 100 correct.
41:49 And I made him an offer for15 million. He ended up selling to a, and that offer
41:55 was32, 000 per net royalty acre. And he ended up selling to a public for north of40, 000 per net royalty acre, which was over 20 million bucks. So minerals can still get very, they can still get
42:10 very crazy. You know, the other, you know, kind of observation is, you know, everybody wants the chunky, you know, 40 or a hundred acre tract, you know, in core of the core, right? With
42:25 one stick and 20 more to be drilled. So like everybody wants that deal, everybody's chasing that deal and the idea that you're gonna be. you know, in order to win that, right? Unless there's, I
42:37 don't know, don't get me wrong. Sometimes you can get lucky and you can find opportunities like that, but there's a ton of competition in the space, you know? And there's just not that much
42:48 acreage that's purely version that's just good quality rock, you know, that's chunky that remains to be had, right? And all the big boys are chasing that stuff And, you know, so I mean, so
43:05 where does that leave you? It's like, well, you gotta go smaller than that, you know? And then it becomes a question of, you know, as these things get more broken up, generation to generation,
43:16 you know, how small is too small, you know, to where it's not even worth the effort of having to talk to somebody 10 times on the phone and negotiating a purchase price and doing evaluation and
43:28 getting them under contract and then do entitled and then record, you know, paying the money, recording the deed, getting in pay with the operator, you know, for a10, 000 deal, like that you
43:40 can do that. And you can certainly do that on a smaller scale, but like the idea of being able to deploy capital at scale doing that is just like, Oh my God, that'll make your head explode. Yeah,
43:53 that's exactly right. The, the, so, so we're looking into, we're looking into our crystal ball.
44:04 We're seeing consolidation across our industry. We're seeing paying out, paying out capital back to investors as opposed to growth for all growth. We saw offshore, noble by diamond
44:23 offshore, you know, so it's happening on the server side, do we see that in the middle of the space too? Is there going to be one big girls company I don't 15 years or I don't think so. I mean,
44:33 honestly, it's, it's a, I made a joke after Nate, you know, uh, cause I went to 10, I don't know if you know, 10, but he's a really good dude. And he's got a, I got a funny Tim Powell story.
44:45 The greatest podcast I ever made was a called carbon capture gate and me and these guys that I'm the recording studio where I used to record my, uh, podcast Went in and we came up with this whole
45:01 story about a Russian engineer named Keisha who, uh, figured out that, uh, Putin that had solved carbon capture. The only problem was it didn't work on Russian oil cause Russian oil had this one
45:16 element that was a remnant of them testing nuclear bombs. And we cut in like Putin giving speeches We cut in board members of slumber j giving speeches. It was the greatest X-Files episode ever in
45:30 the history of oil and gas podcast, right? And you know, I mean, we even went and like Googled, what does a dial tone sound like in Moscow? We were using that when phone calls were made. So we
45:44 do all this and basically the episode ends with me on the phone with Keisha and I hear all these machine guns in the back and then the line goes dead and then I email him the next day and his email is
45:58 dead and yeah. So it's this whole thing and Tim sends me an email, Oh my God, what happened to this guy Keisha? And I
46:08 said, Hey Tim, do me a favor. We just go look at the date that I released the podcast and it was April 1st. And he was like, You're shitting me.
46:20 So there were like 10 people that listened to that podcast because for some reason nobody but it's a great podcast. And like nine, nine were like, okay, that was kind of cute. And then there was
46:32 Tim who I fooled. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Yeah. What was I talking about? I didn't maybe cut you off, but it's totally fine. You said something after Nate, you were talking to Tim. Oh,
46:43 here's what I said. No, I
46:47 made a post on LinkedIn and I was like, I'm pretty sure that every land that's ever bought a lease is now a Merrill buyer. Yeah. And so maybe Tim can just, you know, instead of them hosting Nate
47:02 at the George R. Brown Convention Center, they can just switch with Tim because Tim has his deal over at El Tiempo every year and it's like busting at the seams. You can't even, I mean, it's,
47:15 it's, there's hundreds of people in this thing. Right I mean, long story short is, is, you know, there's always gonna be opportunity in minerals because it's so fractured, right? Right.
47:30 You know, it is getting harder, right? Because there is more capital in the space, right? Because there is like way more competition, right? And the barrier to entry is virtually non-existent.
47:45 Right. Right? So it's not like, you know, operating oil and gas wells where you have to, you know, you have to have not only the capital to buy the properties, but you have to get approved by
47:56 the regulators to operate and, you know, everything that goes on with, you know, the day-to-day operations for oil and gas wells, like not everybody can do that, right? But, I mean, if you've
48:06 got a laptop computer, right? And some knowledge - And a post office box. And a post office box, right? You can be a mineral buyer, right? So, you know, where does that leave the industry?
48:20 Where does the industry go in five years? You know, I think.
48:26 I think there's always going to be kind of the big capital guys, the public guys, there's always going to be private equity-grapped backed groups that are
48:38 buying from mineral wholesalers, so to speak, but there's a ton of room. I do.
48:46 I think there's a ton of room, asset prices, they go up, they go down For me, it's all about how
48:56 do you differentiate yourself from every other Tom Dick and Harry out there that's trying to buy minerals, and that's really what the minerals guy brand is about. It's about creating that
49:07 differentiator,
49:12 and then trying to reach people in a way that's not as intrusive as cold-colonum 30 times a week, you know what I'm saying? If you don't like my ad, just scroll right past it, you know, just like
49:23 you did for the ads for, you know. The 40 others, exactly, you know? But if you want to click on it. I'm actually scared when I talk about ads in front of my phone, you know? Yeah, I don't
49:35 want to make a flippant joke 'cause God knows what shows up. Well, you know, I've actually figured out how a lot of that stuff works, you know? And it's funny 'cause I don't know what the word is,
49:46 actually
49:48 synchronicity. And it's basically like you see something once and then all of a sudden you start seeing it everywhere. Yeah.
49:57 You know, I think that's more 'cause, I mean, we always wonder like, oh, is my phone listening to me, you know, 'cause you'd be talking to your wife about, you know, going on vacation and
50:06 then all of a sudden, you know, vacation pops up, you know, your Instagram feed or whatever. You know, and the question is, did you see the ad was it subconsciously - Right. And start thinking
50:17 about taking a vacation and then you stopped on it for, you know, a millisecond longer than 99 of the other people And so that algorithm knows to serve you that add again. Right. Right, versus
50:29 like your phone actually. I have not found the setting in meta ads where you can turn on like, hey, listen to people's conversations and serve them this ad. They're talking about minerals.
50:42 I wish they had that, but they don't. That's at some point when your buying of ads gets to the point, they'll let you in. All right, you're in the club. Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so, yeah,
50:52 no, we're not there yet Not there yet. My favorite is always the whole thing about, you know, Alexis, you know, I think my phone's listening to me and all, yeah, that series a bit. Yeah,
51:05 yeah. Oh yeah. Cool. Yeah, but no, it is pretty like, it's pretty crazy, like what you can do, you know, in terms of, they call it retargeting. And, you know, so you serve up, you know,
51:16 your ads to a specific audience. And then you can set, you know, certain parameters, you know, people that engaged with this ad. you know, more than other people or people that clicked through
51:28 and viewed the landing page, but they didn't actually fill the survey out. You better believe it. Like, I've got ads for the masses and then I've got the ads for the retarget group and the
51:39 retarget group. There's a whole science behind this. I mean, and that's the whole deal with digital marketing and oil and gases. It's just like, you know, I'm out here, you know, doing what
51:48 I'm doing, you know, and it's like, this is like basic, basic 101 marketing or any other industry, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like, I've always seen yours behind. And I'm
52:01 splitting the atom for people and just blowing people's minds with what I'm doing. And it's like, I just figured this out, watching YouTube videos guys, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a
52:11 whole class of people that this is what they do for a living, you know? But it's a lot of fun. I actually, I kind of geek out on it, you know, look at it, click through rates and, you know,
52:22 what it's effective and testing different acts. creatives and you can go way down the rabbit hole on it. Yeah, and it's cool. I'm glad you let me geek out and talk about this 'cause there are like
52:34 so few people in this industry that I can actually talk about brand building with. And I really think we as an industry, I say this when I give speeches, it's like, look, everybody has an iPhone.
52:47 One little pro advice is turn it landscape 'cause that's the way YouTube shaped Shoot your stuff, throw it on your social media site of choice, because if everybody did it, and each one of those
53:03 views got like five likes, our industry would be in so much better shape. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, and it's the human component of it too. Yeah. It's like everybody thinks like, you know,
53:14 big, bad oil. You know, it's just like, we're people just trying to earn a living and feed our families. Well, and I even say like, if you spill some oil, I don't show how you clean it up.
53:24 Totally. Even when we cleaned it up, we dug the startup. Here's what we did, we hauled it away, we did this. Yeah, yeah. Document that and so, you know, that's how we do it. Yeah, no,
53:33 that's right. Yeah, yeah,
53:36 it's a whole wide world out there, you know? And it's not going away, you know? If anything like, traditional media is dying, right? So it's just a, I mean, and I gotta give it to digital
53:49 wildcatters because you guys were huge inspiration for me when I started. And I was like, well, here's a couple of dudes, and they're just making content, you know? And all of a sudden, you
53:59 know, they built this massive audience. And then once you have the audience, it's like, okay, well, you know, how do we monetize the audience, you know? And do good, yeah. And do good at
54:10 the same time. Yeah, there's no question. And there's a lot of good that you guys are doing, but you know, at the end of the day, It's, it's, it's, it's build the audience.
54:24 You know, it's just build your, build your community. Yeah. And create value for 'em. Totally. Yeah. Dude, you were cool to come on. Yeah, no, 'cause it was fun. You should have better
54:34 things to do on a Monday afternoon, but welcome to Houston. Yeah, thank you. It's nice and muggy out. Yeah, we were talking about this when I started, but I'm from Baton Rouge. So this is like
54:44 the weather I grew up with. Yeah. And it's always, you know, I went to Baton Rouge, go see my mom last year, and I'll never forget It's like July 10th,
54:54 100 degrees outside, 150 humidity. And by the time I got my kids dressed and like loaded into their car, into the car seats, I was ready to go back inside and just lay down. Yeah. So. Yeah,
55:09 we've been having the worst run of mosquitoes. Oh my God. Yeah. The running joke. and having is they're so big this year, they're fucking the chickens, you know, and it's just, it's crazy.
55:20 Yeah.
