Chuck Yates Needs A Job

0:19 Hey everybody, welcome to Chuck Yates needs a job. The podcast. This is freaking cool. Yeah. You're like, I had my dream list of guests I wanted to have on the podcast. James Casey was the

0:32 first name I wrote down. I love it. I appreciate you inviting me to come onto it. I don't, you know, I'm not able to come to Houston very much. So when I do come in the Houston, you're first

0:42 guy calling, see what you're doing. And that's really cool So let's go through the resume. The resume is Azal High School, minor league baseball player, two years at Rice University, drafted by

0:55 the Texans in the fifth round. Were you three years at the Texans or four? Four years. Four years. It's a Texan. And then what two years in Philadelphia? Two in Philadelphia. I tried to blank

1:04 those out. I'm a Cowboys fan. So I had to blank out you being the Eagles. Then one year with Denver and you've been coaching ever since, you of age. And now you're the tight ends coach of the

1:15 Cincinnati Bengals. Yeah. So yeah, been very fortunate. been knowing you ever since the rise to age and remember getting released from the Eagles and coming back home to Houston and having a nice

1:27 bottle of wine with you - We did - We did - We did. So let's start here.

1:37 The Super Bowl. Y'all just played in the Super Bowl. What was that like - It's, you know, you dream about the Super Bowl as a kid. You want to always get to the Super Bowl and it was an amazing,

1:50 hell of a year that we had with the Bengals this year. Not, you know, we always confident knowing that we're expecting to have a really good team this year. But, you know, Joe Burrow obviously

1:59 is a big part of that with us getting there. But just the whole, you know, playoff run, you know, beating the teams we did and beating Kansas City and then getting to the Super Bowl and just the

2:07 excitement with the team and the family. And it's, you know, it's just like I dreamed about. It's, I wish I could have done as a player, but second best thing was to do it as coach atmosphere

2:19 and Jay Z's walking behind us on the bench pregame and the amount of people. And just you know how many people are watching that game and how much is riding on it. And I mean, we just we couldn't,

2:31 you know, sucks that we lost the game, but it was still an amazing experience. And then, you know, me personally, it's just all the family. It was able to go and experience that whole week in

2:42 LA and we had a night we were at the UCLA's campus So we had our hotel was right next to the our practice facility. So we got to experience the LA lifestyle for a little bit. And it was it was it

2:54 was amazing. I mean it, was expensive because I had, you know, all my family and I think that suddenly they expect you to pay. Oh, yeah, I was I was willing to I wasn't expecting anybody to fly

3:05 out to LA and pay for everything themselves. It's so expensive. But I think I had you get 15 tickets and you know, I use all my tickets for friends and family and hotels and somebody end of it,

3:15 you know, you you're end up spending a bunch of money, but you're also getting the extra. check for the Super Bowls. I think I just now finished paying all those tickets off because it was kind of

3:24 ticking out of my salary, you know, from every, whatever every month. So it's finally paid off, but it was, it was more than worth it though. It was a amazing experience. So two things about

3:35 the Bengals this year. One is Joe really as cool as he seems. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He is a unbelievable demeanor. Like he's the real deal. All the intangibles that you want to have a player like

3:47 he's, you know, he's never rattled. And he is, you know, of course, very confident. And he's also got a, like one of the best thing has just that he's got a killer in seeing like he's holds

3:56 you guys accountable. But when it's time to like make the big play and you know, he wants to, he wants to bury teams and bury play. He wants to be that guy that is the one that everybody's looking

4:04 at to make those plays and it made it amazing to be a, you know, for my coaching perspective and me trying to grow as a coach and, you know, try to get to coordinator, head coach job one day like

4:15 it's been great to be around burrow. and just be able to see how he is to see what that guy looks like. And also our head coach, Zach Taylor, and since that he is very similar to Joe. Like, you

4:25 know, they're all calm and they're always the same. Always poised, never flustered. They're the same guy every single day. And it's, it's a, I mean, I'm fortunate just to be around, you know,

4:35 Zach Taylor, our head coach. And then of course NFL, any football, it's all about the quarterback. So you don't sometimes you get lucky and you get that one quarterback. And we're all trying to

4:43 write his coattails now. Yeah. No, it's always, I always say that the quarterback gets way too much credit when they do well, way too much blame when they do poorly. But at the end of the day,

4:53 no crappy quarterbacks go to the Super Bowl. So I mean, you do. They deserve the credit because the amount of, you know, just information they got to know how smart they got to be and just the

5:03 poise they got to have back there and big game, you know, because a lot of quarterbacks, you'll see they'll be really good. And all of a sudden they get to a big game or a crucial point of the

5:10 game and they make, you know, you know, they can just consistently make those errors to not win those games late And when you play in the, you know, like the playoffs and the AFC Championship

5:19 game at Kansas City. And you're just there and you're filling that environment. And it's, it's, it's amazing to watch a quarterback like Burrow that can go out there and be poised and make those

5:29 plays and make those throws. And he hit Jamar Chase on a corner route, you know, late in the game against Tennessee that was, you know, like just the amount of poise that he has to go out there

5:38 and make those plays in those critical situations. It's easy to talk about doing those things, but actually being those moments and to feel what it's like and to fill the fans and the players in the

5:47 crowd and the know how much is, how many, how many people are counting and then go out there and do it. It's, it's rare, you know, it's rare to have a, you know, have a guy like that. And

5:56 hopefully he does it for a long time for my sake and so I can keep my job for a while, which is like Tom Brady is, you know, it's, it's, it's the amount of big games that he's been in and wanting

6:06 the, and holding his teammates accountable. It's very rare to have a guy like that. Yeah It was funny, Nate Newton used to always say. before him at Smith. I was just a big old fat guy. I once

6:17 him at Smith showed up. I was an old pro. That worked out. Yeah - That's me. We first two years and since that, we weren't great. We had a lot of deals, but when you get a guy like Burrow and

6:28 it makes you look like a good coach too - Well, and did y'all see, when you're scouting him, are you able to tell the intangibles from all your background work, talking to coaches, talking to him,

6:39 can you see it or to some degree, are you kind of getting lucky with that? How much do you know versus, versus you're able to tell - I can speak to the tight end position 'cause it's a beautiful

6:51 thing about the NFL is you're not recruiting like you do in college and you're really just focused on your position group and you're evaluating the film, but you do get a, you can get a sense in my

6:60 position for sure. I'm sure our head coach, our offense coordinator, our quarterback's coach did with Burrow and it was kind of a no-brainer. Even going on the draft just from all the reports of

7:10 him and just, but you can meet with them. you know, you can go to their college and talk to them. They have all kinds of psychological evaluations they do. They, you know, now you zoom, you

7:20 can zoom meet with them. But you can get a good sense of a guy, just like we are talking to each other now. You can, once you sit down and talk to a guy and you hear about him from everybody

7:28 that's around him, you can get a real good sense of what kind of mindset and demeanor he has - Could you all have the things I found interesting? So we'll get into this in just a second, but you

7:36 and I met could you went to Rice and you were cool enough to let me go to the combine with you when you worked out at the NFL Combine. And for people that haven't been to the NFL Combine, it's one

7:48 of the greatest sporting events for fans because it's not really a fan event. Nobody can go into Lucas Stadium, everybody that's running the 40 yard dash and all that. Literally the only people

7:59 sitting in there are coaches, GMs and the like. So there aren't really fans there. That being said, everybody from the NFL is there. And if you're there as a fan, all the GMs want to talk to you

8:11 So I mean, I met Bella check. When I was there with you, kind of pulled me aside. I told me about this Casey guy. So it was wild. I mean, I wanted to say that three or four days we were there.

8:23 I met two thirds of the GMs and they all wanted to talk to you because they're all like, why are you here? No. Well, James Casey, oh, tell me about the kid. Well, you must not have made a

8:32 great impression. I told you, because they didn't - I mean, I'd drive them fifth round. They didn't take me. And they kept trading up in that draft or they would trade down. I kept going, OK,

8:40 this is it. Yeah, so I sucked. Sorry Well, that's one of the things I'm most proud of, though, is I wasn't drafting until the fifth round. And I don't know which number of tied in I was, but I

8:49 was down the list of tied ins that were drafted that year. But I outlasted a lot of those guys playing while I was being able to play seven years. And that's - we talk about you can get a good sense

8:57 of a guy when you're talking to him and you kind of see what his attitude isn't talking to other people. But it's hard to really tell how somebody's going to react when they actually do get into an

9:07 NFL locker room and they're playing in NFL games and learning an NFL offense or defense. That's a harder sense to judge how they're going to react to the end, getting that money. Yeah. And if

9:18 they're going to start getting full themselves or getting tied a little bit. But speaking of the combine, yeah, it's a unbelievable experience. And now they do let fans in just changed. I did

9:28 that really. I think there was like 10, 000 people this year. It was a, it was much different this year going to the combine. They, you know, as a coach, I'm just there really just kind of

9:37 sitting around like watching the players and interviewing them and talking to them But when it gets to the actual drills in the field, you're really, you're sitting in the stands like a fan just

9:43 kind of watching them and really trying to watch kind of what they're doing in between drills or, you know, just, you know, kind of, it's always just coach big. You're really just kind of

9:51 watching it. But you kind of already know a good amount, but there's like 10, 000 people in their playing music and a little bit this year. So they kind of, they're trying, you can see now

9:59 they're, the NFL, it's all about money and they're trying to create like fans can come in and try to create some entertainment value to it now. So it's probably not going to be like it was back

10:08 then anymore. They're going to try to make it a big deal And that was so great. Cause that was back when I got introduced to St. Elmo's steakhouse. And so I think we went to dinner. Didn't we get

10:19 a dinner? Yeah. One night in the Tomahawk steak, then you get the Tomahawk robot. And what was it? The shrimp cocktail. The shrimp cocktail with all the horseradish stuff on it. That was crazy.

10:30 I still remember that cause now I go back as a coach to the combine. And I'm, you know, just, I'm part of it like working it. So now I'm still going to some of these places and just still

10:39 remember, I always remember of course your playing career And back in 2009, we were, I went through that and then hanging out with you and just the stress that was involved with that. And just how

10:49 you kind of, that's a player you're hanging on every little bit of thing. And you're trying to get drafted as high as you can. And, you know, looking back, I wish I wouldn't relax a little bit

10:58 and maybe I had a little performed a little bit better than I did. Well, and, and I mean, at the end of the day, you've got that weird stuff of you got to make a certain way, but then you got to

11:06 go run the 40 and yeah And now as a coach, you see the players. I mean, I got two boys now that are 12 and eight and the amount of stuff that goes into these athletes now, like now when the

11:17 players get there, you can, so it'll be like at midnight, like in the hotel, like doing like little drills to try to like, you know, but try like warm up things - Yeah - To try to, whatever

11:28 they're doing to maximize how fast they're gonna run that next day. Like they'll be, you'll see them like doing little, whatever like, they'll be, you know, doing stretches or some weird things

11:36 up and down the hall. They'll, they all got like personal trainers that are out there like working with them, like throughout the whole time. And it's a really stressful environment for the

11:44 players 'cause they got MRIs and like you said, I don't know if people really understand how much goes into that combine with their, the players are like doing stuff nonstop throughout the whole

11:53 thing. And there's so, it makes the biggest job interview in the world. There's so much money at stake for these guys of how they perform like, there's a lot that goes into what they do for that

12:02 one day on the field - Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's ridiculous that literally alignment can make 250, 000. by running a five one instead of a five three - Yeah - You know, I've always -

12:16 Everything's so particular in a felt wise 'cause everybody's really good. Really good coach, really good players. And sometimes the difference is like size and length. And I'm drafting wise, if

12:27 you're gonna draft a guy and you're gonna miss on a guy, you'd rather miss on guy that has the measurables. 'Cause those are the guys that potentially can turn into the superstars. And that's what

12:38 hurt me in the draft 'cause I didn't have like the unbelievable measurables, I'm only six three, I had really short arms. So you fall in the draft just 'cause there's more, you know, they would

12:47 rather, and a lot of us just covering their own as a little bit as NFL teams. 'Cause if you draft a guy that's got the prototype size and speed and all that stuff and he doesn't pan out, like as a

12:57 scouting department, you're saying, well, I mean, you handled intangibles, you just didn't make it better, you know - Yeah, no, you do. I mean, we used to say managing money, you know,

13:08 half of our job is to make money the other half of it is to not look. stupid. And if you go out there and say, okay, I'm going to draft a six, three, 225 pound tight end, because we're going to

13:19 be able to put bulk on him. He's got short arms and he doesn't pan out. You just look stupid. Yeah. It is that. And they draft same way. It's like you want to hit on everyone and you want to,

13:28 you don't get the superstars, the pro bowlers. But more importantly is you don't want to completely miss on a guy. Because if you miss on a first, second, third round guy, I really, I mean,

13:37 that can, that can kill your team because you're not, you're probably not going to release that guy because you're not going to spend that amount of money and then just release him a year or two.

13:44 So you really got to, you know, but he's going to be on your roster and he's probably going to play, especially as a first rounder. So you really just, you don't want to miss, you know, on the

13:51 guy, you'd rather, you know, as long as you get a good player, you'll be all right. So give me one draft wartime type story that people, people would be surprised to hear. It's strange as a

14:06 coaching NFL and because just assuming what I thought would be the case is, you're going to the draft and it's draft day and you're the coach, you're the tight end coach and it's like third round or

14:17 whatever. And they're drafting a tight end. Just the stories that it's not anything crazy 'cause I also can divulge too much of the good stuff too. But it's like you may, the bangles a little

14:28 different 'cause we are involved a lot more as coaches with the scouting process 'cause we don't have a lot of scouts but a lot of teams, you kind of give your reports on the guy and you rank all

14:37 your guys and you say where you think they would get drafted in the rounds but it's really the scouting department and the general managers are the ones that's making those picks. So you may have a

14:45 guy ranked really far, you're really down the list but they don't and you'll just be watching the draft like anybody else and they may draft the guy that you weren't a fan of like and that's the guy

14:57 you got.

14:59 That's why you - To that report, let's put that away - I haven't had that situation but I've heard a bunch of stories like that. They didn't like a guy and then all of a sudden they drafted him in

15:08 the third round. And they're like, well, you know, now it's just you try to do your best. And, you know, like anything, once you, once you get the player in your room, like you're trying to

15:17 do as much as you can to help him and making the best player. But I actually love how it is with the Bengals because we do have way more of a say so as far as evaluating because we, we only have

15:26 like five, six scouts. So the coaching staff with the Bengals are a lot more involved in watching all the guys and giving reports on all the guys and ranking all the guys And we work, we work with

15:35 our Sky Department as opposed to other teams. The position coach may only watch, may only be assigned to watch like five or six guys in their position and then go to a couple of pro days and other

15:46 than that is the Sky Department's just watching all the guys and they're, they're going to be in one's making a decision. But so you just kind of get who you get on a lot of other teams. They don't,

15:53 they don't have much say, a lot of other coaches. So, uh, another fellow rice guy, Will McClay, who works for the, for the cowboys, He was a corner back at Rice back when I was there. been a

16:06 Dallas guy's whole career. He played for the arena team. He coached the arena team. The Jones family really likes Will. Supposedly one of the things he's done 'cause he's taken over the draft, I

16:20 guess the last five or 10 years, however long it's been, is he made all the scouts and the coaches get together for like day long workshops of a coach saying, Hey, here's what I use an outside

16:32 linebacker for. I need this, this, and this Just so the scouts understand the system and can take that into account when they're doing it - That's really smart. And I don't think a lot of teams do

16:42 do that. I think that's just the, you know, it's kind of like every job, it's the ego stuff with some teams where you're there the general manager of the Sky Department that, you know, they

16:50 think they know best and you're just a coach. You don't know how to evaluate guys. You just coach the guy. You don't know how to coach. But we do the same thing though. We make like profile tapes

16:59 of our position and what we do offensively, you know, and the things that we're gonna ask them to do. during the season and then we'll send it to the scout so they can kind of know exactly what

17:08 we're looking for in a guy. And we also have, you know, we write up, we write up reports on what our position entails as a coach, like your, you know, height weight stuff that you're looking

17:18 for, the speed you're looking for, the, you know, the attributes that you're looking for, and the, you know, the even mindset stuff, I'm looking for a guy that's like, you know, has this

17:26 kind of mindset, smart, tough, all whatever it is. And we'll look so everybody can see that and look at what the coaches is thinking when they're coaching the guy because we're going to be the guy

17:35 working with the guy. And yeah, some guys may look beautiful out there and run fast and all that stuff. But if especially that tight end, if they're not very smart, it's going to be really tough

17:45 because there's a lot of stuff you guys know is a tight end. And if they're, if they don't have, you know, short area quickness, it's going to be really tough to be a good tight end. So

17:52 sometimes that stuff gets lost on in certain teams. And that's why some, you know, the draft is not an exact science And it's, it's tough to all these things that go into it to get the right guy

18:03 and some years you know, a decent amount of guys at that position either. So it's kind of year to year as well. My name is great. What we do is the coaches work with the Sky Department to, and

18:16 they listen to us and we give our reports on every single guy with everybody in the heroist to talk about each one of the guys. And so I think we're, I think over the last couple years, I think

18:25 we've been pretty good. And I think, you know, we'll continue to hopefully be really good with the Bengals just 'cause we worked together well. And there's no, there's not let ego involved with

18:33 our team And Mr. Brown's awesome with the Bengals 'cause he's, you know, he's still involved in the process as the owner. He's there at every practice. He's his practice. And so he's really, I

18:46 don't know like Jerry Jones with Dallas is like that too, but I don't know how all this stuff works there. But I know Mr. Brown is like, he pays attention. He's watching, he's listening to

18:54 coaches and he doesn't have a big ego. He's a real modest guy. And he's been, it's been really in the history of, you know, Paul Brown and - Oh, absolutely - And Mr. Brown being his son. I

19:05 don't think Paul Brown gets enough credit as what he should as a, you know, all the stuff that he invented and how big he was in football. Oh, yeah. All the stuff that he did. No, there's a

19:14 there's a phenomenal amount of history there. Yeah. And, you know, it was interesting that you guys are doing it that way because you're too young to remember this, but backing kind of the Tom

19:26 Landry days to think the sixties and the seventies, the Cowboys got credit for being this great drafter because of the computer. They use the computer. I think yeah. Gilbrand was and really the

19:40 beauty behind the computer was not that it had an algorithm you put in certain measurements and it spit out. That's a great player. Actually, what the computer did was because everybody ran their

19:52 scouting department back then by region. So you had a guy in Florida, you had a guy in Texas and that guy would look at all the players and what the computer did is it. took everybody's rankings

20:06 and then it measured those players three and five years later in their NFL career. And what it found was the guy in Texas was, wasn't necessarily a great evaluator of talent for every position, but

20:20 he was really good at running backs. And the guy in Florida would be really good at quarterbacks and wide receivers. And so what the Cowboys started doing early on is taking tape and they would make

20:30 all their scouts watch all the tape. And then they would wait if the guy in Texas, who's good at running backs, they give his vote more weight in the final rankings of all the players. And so it

20:43 was really just ranking the scouts. Okay, how well do these guys do? And what they found out was people did a much better job by position as opposed to by geography. But you did it by geography

20:54 just because you couldn't afford to fly people all over the place. Yeah, that's, and that's fascinating. You're teaching us some things like that's the same the Sky Department, they have areas,

21:04 but they're also assigned to certain positions, which that's good just to hear the history of it. But now with the computers, it's extremely advanced, all the stuff we can find out about players

21:15 and the personality tests, and also just with, through PFF, the pro football focus, I mean, if I'm watching a tight end, I can, there's all these different cut-ups I can make, and I can look

21:25 at every time, he was in a three-point stance on the right side. Every time he was, every time he dropped a pass, every time he broke a tackle, I mean, every time he got a penalty, I mean, you

21:35 can look at anything you want to about the player and you can watch cut-ups, which is just plays of one particular thing. Every time he was on the play side of a zone run scheme, you can, every

21:46 time he was in gap scheme, front side, like you can, so it's much easier now as a coach to like really specifically watch certain scenarios, every time he was in pass prediction, like

21:55 quarterbacks, I mean, you can watch anything you want to, every third down incomplete, every interception, all that stuff. We can get very detailed more watching. Yeah, there are two great

22:04 examples of that in history. One, I think it was when Steve Mariucci became the offensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers. I think I would write about the coach, but anyway, he just went

22:18 and he watched every single play that Joe Montana. And on interception an threw

22:24 he noticed that 80 of the time when Joe Montana threw an interception, it was based on two play calls. So he just got rid of them in the playbook -

22:34 Yeah, it was literally as simple as just, we're never gonna call those two plays. And next year, Joe Montana, I think, threw four interceptions. Or, you know - That's fascinating too. And

22:45 that's just every time you're telling, like with Burrow and our head coach, Zach Taylor, it's the same kind of deal with him. Like we'll be in the offensive install meetings and we're installing

22:55 the plays. And it's almost like Burrow's a coach as well. He knows a young player, 'cause, know he, Zach may say something, install a player something and then He'll ask Burrow about his certain

23:05 thing about what he likes or don't like. And there's a, you know, getting the input from the player, because they're the ones out there doing it. And you want to make sure they have confidence in

23:12 the plays that they're running and certain things Burrow doesn't like doing. He doesn't like certain play concepts and he'll voice that and then we just don't run that play. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the

23:21 other great example too was Penn State upset Miami and the Fiesta Bowl. And that was back when Vinny Testa Verde was the Heisman winning quarterback for Miami and Joe Paterno was sitting there

23:35 watching tape and supposedly 18 hours into watching tape. He noticed that anytime there was a third down and it was an important type play, then he Testa Verde would look at his primary target while

23:50 calling the signals. So he'd be like, you know, ready and he'd look over at whoever the wide receiver was that was the primary set hike and then run the play And so, Peterno installed that or told

24:02 his defense about. that and they'd sit there at the line and they'd test where to be ready and look over and they'd just shift. That would be the double coverage. And it's all just finding the

24:12 tendencies on tape. It's fascinating just being in it and being the coach and just seeing it being a coach in the NFL and just one of the biggest stages in the world. It's a billion dollar industry

24:24 just seeing how much goes into the preparation for a game. That stuff happens all the time with us. Now you can watch the TV copy of every game on our computer system. We have TV sports so you can

24:36 watch the play that's filmed from our filming department from a bunch of different angles and you watch the different angles of the play. And then you can also watch the TV copy of that play. So you

24:47 can hear a lot of times now with the sound, you can hear a lot of stuff on the TV. So we have guys that are just, and every team does, and the Patriots are famous for it. But you're just

24:57 listening for certain calls. The center made me making the line of scrimmage or the with the quarterback saying and you can pick up a lot of things each game on what you're kind of anticipating

25:08 happening and every team is doing that. So you just got to be smart as our team of knowing that if we do have tendencies or we're saying certain things, we got to be changing it up. And, but you

25:16 know, you don't just the pre the amount of work that goes into the pre snap and the communication is, is it's fascinating how much it's any industry. You know, I'm sure with oil and gas stuff,

25:26 it's the same way like people, the people that aren't in it, it's hard to really understand like how much goes into each play and how specific everything needs to be and how critical, especially

25:36 NFL, you get 60, 70 plays and how important every single play is and to win games and then it fell and how hard it is. You, you, the amount of work that goes into each play, trying to get their

25:48 tendencies and try not to have your own tendencies. And it's a, a lot of mental stuff is going into each play. Yeah. And then it's, it's, it's wild for me listening to a really good analyst,

25:59 like listening to Romo. where they'll run a replay and it's like, see how they had the guard pull on these five plays. It's setting up this play, you know, when they're expecting the guard to

26:13 pull and he doesn't pull or whatever. It's amazing the chess match there 'cause it's not just, okay, we run this play. It's like we set this play up for the last, you know, and you're saying

26:23 it's even games. We did that in week three to set this play up in week seven Oh yeah, everything is extremely specific and you're trying, like the really good offenses and really good teams, like

26:35 they have a system. So they'll run certain plays. They have things that they can hang their hat on and they're like ours is, you know, under center wide zone, like that's what we run. And off of

26:45 that, we have play actions and, you know, keepers and screens and, but you're, as you run each play, and we get these pitchers on the sidelines so you can see what the defense is doing. You're

26:54 trying to, you're trying to set up certain things later on in the game and even later on in the season. You're also just

27:05 the pitchers. You can see exactly what the defense is doing on the sideline that you get. So you may see a linebacker in an added position on a certain play. And then you'll come back to that same

27:15 play. And then you're trying to take advantage of that. But the defense is smart too. So they'll change their defenses too. So it's a chess mass all the time. And we had a couple of plays this

27:25 year against the Ravens where, Burrow, he would have a signal in the backfield to change a route on a blitz package. And we did it a couple of times early in the year. And we knew, we'd Martin

27:36 Del with the Ravens was really going to be tied into that signal. And we knew they blitzed a lot. So we called the play. And he was signaling as if it was going to be that play. They would always

27:46 do. But it was a fake signal. And they jumped around. We had CJ. Yuzama on a touchdown on a big play like that. The amount - that was one of the - those things are just like, that's what's fun

27:57 about coaching 'cause you get the defense and you get their coaching staff that it was really all, you know, it was all about coaching. Like we set them up on a certain play and fake signal to them

28:06 and then hit them for attention. You know, Vince Lombardi back in the day sent the Green Bay Packers playbook to every other team during a summer camp and would just say, Hey, guys, here's the

28:20 plays we're going to run just so you know, in that wild. How far we've come. Yeah. That's, there's all these stories about, you know, teams leaving out their, their playbooks after the, you

28:30 know, or their, their, their scheme after the game. You go to the locker room and you get their scheme. So next time you play them, you save it all because you're going to be playing those teams

28:38 down the roads or you want to know as much information as possible. And also teams like think like, I think it's might be Michael, each is like famous for like, you know, because you script out

28:47 the first 15 plays usually, what you're going to run a famously like as they walked through the stadium before the game, like he left out a fake first 15 plays and then whoever they were playing got

28:56 in, it's like, Oh yeah, it's going to be a bubble, the first play and they run like a bubbling go. He set him up by sending a fake. He's set out a fake diagram of the first 15 plays and then

29:05 they, they ran opposite of what it said basically on that, on that sheet, but the gamesmanship. Oh, and now Davis back in the day, if, if he was playing a team and they had recently cut

29:15 somebody, he'd always sign them for a day, scrub them down and then cut them. Yeah. That's what that happens all the time. Like with quarterbacks or linebackers where you're, you're playing a

29:23 certain team and, or you may have that guy on your roster who was at that team the last season and you know, you know, you don't, you know, you're not trying to be manipulating or anything, but

29:33 you're, you're, you're playing the team and it's a big game. Like you want to learn as much information as possible and what their calls are and what their thought process is. Well, and if you're

29:40 the player, you want to paycheck. Yeah. So I mean, I, I kind of, you know, I mean, it's paying you. Yeah. If you want to, if you want to, if you want to call me after Kane booted me, I'm

29:47 going to sing my, sing my guts out. I played that my last year was with the Broncos with Peyton Manning. They, they won, they won, You want a Super Bowl? I got fired before the fifth game

29:57 because I was old. just couldn't run very well anymore. And that was my last year, but being with Peyton Manning was fascinating just to see how he operates. And he would have his own meetings

30:06 with the players and the skill position guys before our regular meetings. And he would go through like two minute offense stuff where we're signaling and we're calm plays. And but he would, he

30:16 would only allow the people that were, that were going to be in the game in those meetings, like even the, like the practice squad guys and even coaches wouldn't be in that meeting. Cause he

30:23 really want to keep everything like really secret So he would be really detailed on like what his signals were going to be and what his calls were going to be a lot of scrimmage, making sure that the

30:32 other team didn't have any advantage knowing it. And then if we ever played a team, you know, like within your division, you're playing in the second time, he would always be real detailed on

30:41 watching the TV copy himself and like hearing what he's saying and seeing what he looks like. And to try to do those same things and run a different play, you know, just the amount of like

30:50 attention and detail that he had was, it's fascinating They said Brady was Brady's the same way too, that Brady's. in their meeting with the offensive coordinator, just him and the offensive

30:59 coordinator going through all those things - Yeah, the NFL gets a bad rap sometimes because of the superstar players that maybe have big egos or getting trouble. But a lot of the NFL is the guys who

31:12 just, or a lot of these guys are really smart and they work really hard and it's like any job. I mean, they're in there nonstop, like studying, trying to get any advantage they can. 'Cause a lot

31:22 of money is a stake, but the amount of work that goes into each game that special teams was, like these guys probably never, like me, like most people would have no idea who I was, but I played

31:32 seven years in the NFL and just I wasn't the ego type guy. I was in their study and trying to get, do everything I possibly could to gain advantage for that game and play as long as I could - That's

31:42 amazing. Hey, let's do this. 'Cause I think you have literally the most amazing human story. So I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask you about it Take me back to Azal. in high school and take me

31:58 back to your junior year in high school. You mind talking about that - No, yeah, I don't talk about it often but I have no problems talking about it. Just 'cause my mother passed away when I was a

32:10 sophomore in high school - Oh, it's sophomore year - Yeah, and you know, 'cause I don't know who's listening to this but if there's somebody listening to it that maybe everybody has some bad things

32:19 happening or some tragedies and I was at a group and hardly any money at all real poor, like, you know, living in trailer and but the biggest thing happened was my sophomore year, I was at school,

32:32 my mother worked nights at like cleaning houses and so she came home and she slept during the day but I was at school in biology class and I think it was just a student came in with the little sheets

32:42 as you need to go to the office and as I go to the office, like I have a half brother

32:50 and he was standing there and he was just told me like Rowan and I got there the trailer burned down your mom was inside. So like immediately, you know, like whole life change. And so I leave

33:01 biology class. I go, my, he says your trailer burned down, your mom's inside. So, you know, I get in the truck with him and we drive to the, to where I was living. And it's still like smoking.

33:13 And my mom was inside and the trailer burned down. I literally lost everything. And of course that's, you know, crushing. And there's, you know, not a lot of good things coming out of that.

33:26 And, but I was real down, you know, felt terrible. Of course, you know, it was like, why, you know, why me? Like, why does this, you know, like, I'm sure certain people in that situation

33:37 just may just say, you know, screw it and just give up or turn to drugs or just whatever. But I was, you know, for like four or five days, you know, of course I was crushed. My mom passed away.

33:45 I lost literally everything I had besides the backpack and the clothes I was wearing. And my dad was there, but he was more of a hippie type guy. Nothing, not a bad guy at all, but he wasn't the,

33:56 traditional and responsible parents. So he was, he was, he was there, but it wasn't, you know, like he was just going to take care of me and whatever. And, but after those, you know, it was

34:05 like four or five days. And I was of course down and felt terrible, but then I finally just had an epiphany. It's like, you know, like, what am I going to do? Yeah, I can sit here and feel

34:14 sorry for myself and just walk around crying and, you know, holding my head down. But, or I can say, you know, what would my mom would have won? Is she, would she want to be just walk around

34:26 sulking and feeling sorry for myself or would she want to be to make something to myself? So I just, once that happened, I was like, okay, well, I got to, I need to make something myself. Just,

34:35 and I was always motivated, but then after that, I was even more motivated just to do whatever I could to be successful. And I was always good in school and sports. And a lot of my community

34:46 helped me, like they, you know, I grew up with hardly any money. So I mean, after my mother passed away, like, like a bunch of people I donated clothes and. gave me like some money, little,

34:57 like I guess it'd be like a go fund me now situation. We didn't have that back then. But so they, so I said, you know, went back to school and just continue to make good grades and continue to do

35:09 well in school. And then, you know, it's one of those things that sucks, but there's a lot of people know, now you. And, happening things bad have that

35:17 that I'm older and I've read a lot of things and thought through a lot of things, like it's, it's really just like, you know, like, yeah, bad things happen, but you can control the

35:26 controllables, you know, like what can you control like your attitude, your effort, your, and how do you want to live? You want to just, what kind of person you want to be like what? So I,

35:35 you know, like I've fortunately, I, that was a bad situation, but I still, you know, you don't get over that, but I was able to not just go completely downhill afterwards, which, you know,

35:48 if everybody, if anybody is out there that's listening to this and they've had something really bad happen, like, doesn't mean that it's the end of your world You know, like what would, what

35:55 would. the, wherever that bad thing, if it was a person you knew that, that was, you know, the pass away, like what would they have wanted? And then that was kind of my, my process, my

36:04 thought process was like, what would she have wanted me to do? What would, you know, and then after I thought about that, I was like, okay, I'm just, she'd want me to be successful, have a

36:12 good life and have my own kids and all that stuff. That's kind of my thought process always been. And it was amazing. Cause you went and you played minor league baseball for five years. I think,

36:23 um, I think your quote was you couldn't hit the curveball or, or couldn't throw a strike with your curveball, but then came back to rice, played football for two years, but you wound up

36:38 graduating from rice in what two and a half, three years, six semesters. Yeah. Yeah. Six semesters. Right. With a three nine. It was a, yeah, I had, well, I went downhill, my GP a little

36:39 bit at the end cause I had a kid and, but it was like my overall GP, I think was a three, six, four

36:55 And I graduated in six semesters and three majors in a minor. And, but going back to my mom, too, was that once she passed away, like, I had a lot of help too. Like I had my wife now. We've

37:06 been married 16 years. Like I started staying with her son. I had my athletic trainer and his wife, which is basically like my parents now. Like they let me start living with them because my dad

37:16 was there. But he, he had even a worst trader than what we had the way we were living in that burned down. So it's like I couldn't, it wouldn't sustainable to stay there And, and a lot of people

37:26 helping me and, you know, like good people around you. Cause no matter how hard you work or, you know, how good you are certain things you're going to need a lot of help. You're going to need

37:35 help. You need people to support you and be there and help you. And, and yeah, I mean, I was always a motivated person. And then, you know, after that happened, I was even more motivated and

37:46 then I had people around me help me and just, and I'll, to this day, I'm still like that like I'm really motivated in whatever it is to. try to be the best at it. Not just good, I don't even

37:58 wanna do anything unless I can try to be the best in the world at it. And I'm just really narrow focus on what I'm doing and trying to be really good at it. And just 'cause I don't wanna let the

38:07 people around me down and I wanna

38:10 set an example for my kids too, my boys - Yeah, now I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you wrote me a

38:20 note even before we'd met, 'cause you had the Chuck and Kim Yates scholarship at Rice. That's how we met the Athletic Department reached out and said, Hey, we got a special guy coming in. We

38:30 think you would pair really well with. And the note laid out that story. And I remember the line that you kind of closed it with something to the effect of, No one will ever work harder than me on

38:43 the field or off the field. You will never be embarrassed by anything I do. And yeah, I remember balling my eyes out, reading that letter. That was pretty powerful stuff. You're cool to tell

38:56 that story because I brag on you every chance I get with that story. And it means a lot because it's really easy to go get drunk. It's really easy to go buy drugs. It's really easy to say screw it

39:12 and just give up and you didn't. Yeah. I appreciate you telling. I mean, I remember that vaguely. I don't remember exactly what I said

39:22 When I came to Rice after I grew up really poor and I played Marley baseball but it wasn't like I had any money. I was living in really crappy hotel. I mean, we'd travel in really crappy hotels in

39:35 Marley's. I stayed in a really crappy apartment. And a lot of stuff happened but I ended up at Rice playing football. When I got to Houston at Rice, it's not like I've never even been to a really

39:46 nice steakhouse or a really nice restaurant I've never ridden in really nice cars or had really nice places to stay at still. I've never had a house. You know, so I was kind of like a Neanderthal

39:58 kind of coming to rice. Like I didn't, you know, I watched TV and stuff, but not like I had cable TV when I was growing up. But it wasn't, not like I was around anybody that was really rich and

40:07 successful. So just getting to know you, because you were this, my scholarship sponsor. And I got really lucky that you were my scholarship sponsor. And we got to have one dinner with the

40:16 compliance person was there. It was strictly nothing illegal there. And then, but you know, you know, you know, why rice, why the NCAA can look at this and say that, uh, that rice doesn't

40:29 cheat. Cause if I was going to cheat, we'd win. Yeah. That's all I'm saying.

40:34 That's all I got the NIL stuff. Were you? I know we need to figure out how to do that. But no, it was great. We went to dinner in this, you know, usually it's an 18 year old freshman and going

40:45 to dinner and you have compliance there. And we were kind of sitting there at dinner and, and you were really quiet You were very shy. your wife, Kylie, of course, is miss outgoing and chatting

40:59 the whole thing. And I remember turning to compliance going, You know, James played minor league baseball, so he's at least 21. Can we go next door to Ks and get a beer? And you just kind of

41:11 look like, Yeah, that'd be great. And compliance was just like, Okay, I guess so. And we wound up going to Ks - Yeah, it was, I remember that, and I remember like just simple things, like

41:24 even after I graduated, like going out to dinner with you and going to like some nice restaurants and just learning, like even though I was 23 when I went to college and then 24, I guess I was

41:36 drafting I was 25. So I was already married and, you know, when I went to college, but I still never experienced a lot of like the fancy things, like even like going to, you know, valets and

41:45 things like that were new to me. So just hanging around with you, like just kind of watching you and like seeing how you're supposed to act in nice places and seeing how to do the menus and like, I

41:53 mean, sounds silly, but even stuff to me. like that was different and unique - And I'm gonna slightly embarrass you here, but you've already kind of fussed up to a lot of it. You asked me one

42:04 time what the 19 meant next to something on a menu, 'cause you'd never seen a menu that didn't have like five point in the year, five point in the year, five point in the nine - Yeah, just said 19

42:13 names. I was looking at all the numbers. I didn't, yeah, like that's, I remember that as well, like the little things like that, like just seeing how to order and like what you're supposed to

42:23 look like and dress and not that I'm like a dummy or anything, I kind of like was aware of some of these things, but still haven't done it before. And I'm also very introverted. I don't, you know,

42:32 like I'm not like my wife that goes around talking to everybody. And, but it's, that's also helped me be successful 'cause I'm not really concentrating on going and talking to everybody and going

42:42 on social media and like commenting on everything. Like I'm really, like when I decide I wanna do something, I gotta go like going to Rice and trying to be really good at football and school. It's

42:50 like, that's all I'm doing. I mean, I'll have some entertainment here and there, I'm.

42:55 I don't need to be out talking about it - I will say this to all the NFL owners out watching this podcast, 'cause I'm sure they all listen to it - Yeah, they do - Shucky, he needs to job the

43:03 podcast is, I will say this, you are an introvert, but when you're sitting at the table and you start talking, everyone shuts up and listens. Remember the dinner I had at my house where all the

43:15 guys came over and we were making steaks, 'cause Kim and the kids were up until your ride - Yep - And you came over for that Remember we were all sitting around and everybody maybe had one too many

43:26 glasses of wine and blow hard and talking and you started talking to everybody, just shut up. So, yes - That's the advantage - Yes, you come in the road - Yes, I'm also pretty cynical a lot of

43:35 times just with people and just observing things and seeing people not being the best types of people. So I don't really try to reach out to too many people and try to get a bunch of relationships,

43:47 not deep relationships with certain people,

43:50 just to kind of seeing throughout what I see around, I'm just seeing that that may not go well for me down the road. So I just stick to what I do and my wife and my kids. And if it was like NFL

44:01 owner is listening though, it's not like I'm, you know, I don't enjoy talking to people. And, but it's, I just don't, when I find people that I like though, then I think you're good people,

44:10 then okay, I'll open up and talk to you and get a relationship. But other than that, I'm really just, I mean, I guess probably sounds of people listening, like boring or whatever, but I'm

44:18 probably am boring to most people, but I'm also focused on what I'm trying to do and trying to be good at just a certain amount of things, not everything, just a couple of things I want to be

44:26 really good - So tell me the quick story about being at Rice, where you played, how many positions did you play in a game - They say seven, but I mean, I don't know exactly what it was, but the

44:39 best way, the, when I came to Rice, I was 23, I was married, I've luckily got a scholarship somehow and they gave me a scholarship to play defense. even though I played quarterback as a kid,

44:49 but I was like, okay, whatever, I'll take anything. Like it's rushing adversity and I get an opportunity to play college football. But I learned from playing Marley baseball and getting fired

44:57 from that. And that's, you know, that you're thinking like, I'm 18 years old at Azale High School, no money, mom passed away all that stuff. And then I go play Marley baseball for four years.

45:06 I'm thinking I'm gonna be a big leader and an all star. And, you know, it didn't work out. I couldn't throw strikes. And I was a pitcher who couldn't throw strikes. And you learn a lot, you

45:15 know, that's, I'm 18 to 20 I think I was done playing at 22. You know, I'm 22 years old and I've already failed at a completely career. You know, if I based that, my career, I got fired from a

45:26 career and I could never do that again. You know, never happening yet. That 22 years old. So you learn a lot of valuable stuff with that, you know, you're 22 and you're like, okay, I screwed

45:35 that up. Like I didn't make it to the big leagues. And that's another thing that just completely changed. I mean, not change, but it, that's a big motivation for me is like, okay, I got fired

45:45 from a career I can't even do that career anymore. They don't even want me. I can't even do it. And so when I went to Rice, I was like, there is no, like when I was writing you that letter, I

45:54 meant it. Like there's nobody going to outwork me. I promise you. And you can ask anybody that I played with at Rice, I mean, the coaches, like there's nobody that did, like in the entire

46:01 country. I mean, I was a, I was borderline like crazy person in a good way though. I mean, I was, I was focused and nobody's going to outwork me. And there was nothing. And I was up. So

46:11 leaving baseball, it was, I'm going to have no regrets whatsoever in anything else I do Whatever I did, once I decide this is what I'm doing and I have a worthwhile goal of this thing, like

46:21 nobody's going to outwork me because of what happened in baseball and mother stuff in my life. But so I'm not going to have any regrets when I go to Rice and I'm not going to take a lot of shift from

46:30 anybody. Because baseball wise, I just felt like, you know, was, and I'm not going to worry about everybody else is doing baseball. I thought I was, you know, the regrets I had getting fired

46:39 from baseball, I felt like I could have worked harder and I kind of listened to too much, even coaches, like I was trying to do exactly what they told me.

46:48 I'm saying a long story, but just talked about why I played so many positions in Rice, but the I was, you know, that I've heard the two worst players that you can coach are the players that in

46:58 this way stuck with me. The player done do anything you say. I was, you know, he doesn't, obviously that's not a good guy to coach. And then the player does everything you say. Exactly. And I

47:05 was that guy. I did everything they said exactly. And it wasn't good for me. Like, you know, you sometimes coaches aren't necessarily telling you exactly what you need. Like, you know, better

47:14 than anybody else And so when I went to Rice, I was not being disrespectful or anything. Like, I'm going to do what I do. And I'm going to be respectful and learn everything. But I'm not going to,

47:25 if I don't think it's going to be good, I'm just not going to tell them, but I'm not doing that. I'm doing what I know is going to be good. And I'm definitely not worried about what hell anybody

47:33 else is doing. I don't care what I don't care if any of these 18 year old college kids and I'm 23. Like, I don't give I don't care less what a freshman in college is doing or sophomore like I don't

47:42 care I'm here to play football I'm here to win and be 'cause I'm here to play football, but I'm not going to be good at school. I'm kind of joking there, but I was like, yeah. And so you probably

47:53 asked my teammates when I was at Rice, like they probably thought I was standoffish. And but I wasn't a bad teammate, but I just, I wouldn't care what they were doing. Like I knew they were 18,

48:01 I'm 23. Like I don't, I'm not going out to your parties. I'm not going to hang out with you unless it's, you know, unless you were going to work out, or go study the playbook or do school stuff.

48:10 Like, and so when I get, so when I start playing, I start off at defense, and then they move me to quarterback. Long story about, I started off at defensive end at Rice from, and I played all

48:20 spring at defensive end during the spring, and then I talked to coaches in the moving offense, 'cause I feel like I had to like campaign to the, to then the moving offense. Even though I would

48:29 have played defensive, they wouldn't have let me. And then we had some injuries on defense. So then they let me play defense one game. And just simple things like, you know, I'd be on the

48:39 sideline during practice, and they'd be punting the ball. We'd be working on punt return And I was like, fresh, but I wasn't on part return. So I'm just observing our wasn't starter, which

48:48 preserving. And we had a guy that wasn't catching punts very well in the games. He would like muff them. And we, we, we sucked early on, my freshman year. And I just watched it. I'm just, you

48:58 know, I was 23 year old college player and I'm seeing this guy and not catch the punt. And I'm a, you know, I'm defensive in quarterback. Now I'm quarterback. And I'm just like, through this,

49:09 I'm not letting us not catching punts beat us. So I just go out there and start standing in line and start just catching punts, even though I was playing quarterback at the time, just kind of just

49:19 know, like getting in there and just showing them I could catch it. And the coaches saw me catching it. And eventually they just put me in a punt return. So like they asked me to do it. I just

49:26 went out there and did it and like everything, like snapping. I was like, well, I can, I can snap. So I would be like the backup snapper or like holding on field goals. I was like, I can do

49:35 that. I just, cause I just wanted to win so bad. I was willing to do anything. So I, you know, like anything they said to do or position wise, I'd I can do that.

49:46 I can do that. I'll play receiver. And then they put me out there. Let me practice. I ended up being good at it. And so I did all, you know, all kinds of stuff. And that's why I played so many

49:54 wide receiver play running back just because I can do that. Like I start going out to when I was playing defensive in in the spring, we had some in summer, we had seven on seven and we would go to

50:06 like Sam Houston and play them. And I was a defensive in college, but I would talk to like Chase Clement, our quarterback. And I would find out when they were going, even though I was a defensive

50:14 in, I would just go with them as a defensive in just to watch. And generally what would happen as we'd go out there to these seven on seven, just summer workouts and somebody wouldn't show up like

50:24 the running back wouldn't show up. So then I'm the only guys there, even though I'm a defensive in. So they just, I go out there and play running back. Even though I don't know anything about

50:32 running back in seven on seven and just just showing the players, there's no coaches even out there. I'm just showing the players that I can run, I can catch, I can throw, I can do things

50:40 offensively So I got to play running back sometimes and so on and so on, And then to the quarterback, Chase started seeing that. And then I would go out and do some receiver stuff 'cause we needed

50:51 some guys to get tired. Even though I was a defensive event, I'd just be out there running routes. And then finally, we got to, after at the end of summer, they kind of watched me throw and let

51:00 me move to offense. But I was playing defensive in the whole time. But long story, but the reason why I played so many positions in college is 'cause I did not wanna lose. And like I said, I was

51:09 literally gonna have no regrets and the way that I worked me. And

51:13 I was not afraid to get out of my comfort zone. And go do things that maybe weren't comfortable to me, but if it was gonna help us win, I thought I could be good at it or better than who the guy

51:22 was doing it at the time. I just did it. And then I made it, you know, like the old adage, like make them tell you no. Just go do something and then they'll tell you no or they'll say, okay,

51:32 you're pretty good at that - 'Cause I mean, wasn't it, was it Southern Miss? Was that the

51:38 famous game that got reported? had a sack as defensive end. You scored a rushing touchdown or receiving touchdown. You may have even thrown one too. You returned upon your return to kickoff.

51:51 Could you were the wild cat quarterback too? Yeah. That's definitely what started, what started my football, you know, like being a football player and eventually getting to play NFL. And now

52:01 I'm coaching the NFL, but it's really from that Wednesday night game where early on in the we were like, Oh, and four, oh, and five or something. We weren't very good. I really wasn't getting

52:10 to play a lot. I was a true freshman. I played defensive end in the spring. And then I went to quarterback during the fall. And all I was doing was just wild cat quarterback. So they weren't

52:19 really putting me out there a lot, which is understandable. Like, but we got to Wednesday night, we were playing Southern Miss. And now as a coach, I'm assuming like the coaching staff just said,

52:31 Hey, let's just put this guy out there and let him play. So they finally started to let me play. And I did my quarterback stuff I started playing some wider receiver stuff, some running back. I

52:40 was on the punt team. I was a punt returner. I was, and then I got to play defense that game because we had some injuries on the defensive line. And a story about that was like the, the, that

52:53 week, like leading up to Southern mess I've been, so I played defensive in all spring. And then I didn't get the quarterback until fall camp. So, and then we're like in game five or six. So I

53:02 haven't done defensive in this entire time in fall camp or anything. But like the day before the game coach Beethoven was like, Hey, do you remember that defensive in the defense coordinator was

53:11 asking me? And I was like, yeah, I remember everything. Just cause I mean, I really didn't, but I was like, I'm just showing them how confident I was I can do it. Right. And they said, okay,

53:20 here's your wristband thing. And I did like a, the morning of or the night before like I did, we did like walk throughs of defense, a couple of defensive end plays and, and I was just so

53:29 confident that I could do it. And I had the, when I had the wristband on and Southern mess, I was playing quarterback Now let me do some receiver stuff. I scored a touchdown as a quarterback. And

53:39 then every time we got on defense, you know, I was an offensive player and I get most guys would probably be like, Oh man, I hope they don't put me in defense event. But I would walk, I would

53:47 stay on my other defensive coordinator every drive, like just trying to get into putting me in the game. And finally it was like a little bit later in the game. We had a couple injuries or

53:56 something and they're like, Oh, James, you're in. So I just took, you know, took off, went in a defensive end. And I think I played five plays. I had a sack, like a half a sack, kind of

54:05 tackle for loss. Like I did a really good job at defensive end for only like the five plays I played But it was, and that's when it, it was a, that's when it kind of, cause then I go to the

54:16 cafeteria at Rice the next day. And I'm not thinking anything of it. I'm like, okay, we played, we won. We finally we won the game on Wednesday night against Southern Miss. And we had, you

54:24 know, it's school Thursday. So I'm like studying and trying to get ready for school on Thursday. And then I go to school the next day at Thursday, even though we didn't get back super late. And

54:32 then I go into the cafeteria at Rice and like everybody stands up and like, gives me like a stand in ovation as I walk in And I'm like, just flattery. I didn't recognize how crazy that was. Like

54:44 you're not supposed to be able to play quarterback and score touchdown and sack the quarterback in a college football game, division one college football game. So everybody was like, like noticing

54:52 me and like the for the first time. And then after that, I kind of took off and started getting a lot of opportunities. But it's a looking back now as an old, you know, 37 now and it's a coach

55:02 like, it's really, I'm really proud of like my attitude. You know, like that's really hard to do and I was like, at any age to be that type of guy that's like, put me out there. Let me play

55:12 defensive in like just not being afraid. And now I have kids that are 12 and eight, like that's, I'm trying to get that mindset with them to like, you know, be that, you know, that dog

55:22 mentality, that tough guy, like you're not afraid of anything. You're not afraid to get out of your comfort zone and the confidence that that takes to do that stuff - No, that's right. Cause I've,

55:31 so your biggest fan on the planet has always been Sarah Yates, the middle child And you know what, next time you start talking. Don't mind me, I'm gonna go to my iPhone to see if I can find the

55:44 picture. But, you know, the funny thing about, about Sarah Yates is, I mean, you were big and muscular and quiet and you'd come into the house and you'd sit down and Sarah Yates would just pop

55:59 herself in your lap and she would always, you know, what do you wanna do? I'm gonna go see Mr. Casey play. I'm gonna go see James Casey and all that. But that's one of the things I always tell

56:10 Sarah about 'cause Sarah's gonna rule the world one day. I don't know if it's for good or for evil. I don't know that yet, but I know she's gonna do it and I always tell her that. It's like, look,

56:18 you gotta get out of your comfort zone. If you're not, you're not growing, you know? And so, yeah - That's, yeah, and to this day, of course, I remember Sarah being little and like coming up

56:29 and talking to me. And to this day, that's the only kid that's ever like not been like afraid of me. Like wanting to come up and talk to me like. It's not like I'm a mean guy and I'm never gonna

56:41 do, you know, anything mean to a kid or anything like that. But I guess just the way I look and I'm not the most bubbly of people. Like when I'm just walking around, I guess the way my face looks

56:50 or something like kids have been, all kids are just terrified of me, but she was the one kid that hasn't been afraid of me. So she is going to probably rule the world just cause she's not scared.

56:58 You know, so I like me walking around. I'm scared of Dave Guisey. The other great Sarah Yates line, cause she, I mean, like totally she wasn't afraid of you at all. Y'all were walking. I don't

57:07 know if you remember this Y'all were walking, you and Kylie, each, each of y'all had one of Sarah's arms and y'all were swinging her and y'all were walking down the car. And Sarah looked up at you

57:17 all and said, y'all should have children. Cause we're wonderful. Yeah, we're great. I definitely remember that. And we do now. We got, I got a 12 year old and an eight year old and two boys.

57:27 It's a, they're just, you know, they're fighting each other all the time, but it's the most rewarding thing that you can do is have those kids and just same grow up and hopefully they end up being

57:36 good people and It's frustrating though too. Like as a, 'cause they're both big baseball players right now and they're on really good teams in Cincinnati, but you know, telling my story of

57:45 football and NFL and Marley baseball and wanting them to be even better than me. And that's the expectation. Like the expectation is for my oldest son, Cannon to be a first round draft pick and to

57:56 play in the big leagues and be an all star. And same thing with my youngest son to get a scholarship. It's like, I'm not the type of parents gonna be like, Oh, if you don't play, if you don't

58:04 get a scholarship. I mean, of course I'm, if you don't get a scholarship, okay, that's fine. You'd have to have a backup plan, but which is probably counter to what every other parent says.

58:13 But my wife's the same way. It's like we are working to get a college scholarship and to play in the big leagues or to play in the NFL. Like that is your goal and that's you need to believe it and

58:21 you need to expect that to happen. And just they're young and they're kids, you know, but I'm sure I was like, I don't remember what I was like at age, but I'm sure I was similar, but trying to

58:30 get, you know, and I'm like the one person, you know, as dad, you know, they don't listen to dad, but I'm talking through to them about. mindset that you need as a pitcher that I wasn't good

58:40 at, but I know what it would it taste because of how bad I was. I know I learned it as a football player. The mindset you need is a hitter. The mindset you need in football. I'm just talking to

58:48 the kids, my boys, and trying to get them to hopefully get that the mindset that I had that I have now and that I had when I was at Rice to try to get them in that mindset early on so they can

59:01 really take off and be good No participation trophies in the Casey House. It's not okay either. I have a shirt that says it's not okay. I tell them it's never okay. Nothing is okay. Not that I'm

59:14 being mean to everything, but if they fall down, I'm not going to say, Are you okay? If I know it's not a bad injury, I've been tough on them, so they're probably going to be like, but I'm

59:26 loving father. I'm not a crazy person, but trying to instill that toughness it takes because that's probably the thing that I'm really proud of myself on and that I'm probably most proud of as an

59:36 athlete is that. I felt like I was a really tough guy. Like I didn't miss any games in college, even though I was playing all those positions. I only missed like four games in FL, played full

59:46 back, played special teams. Like I pride myself on being a really tough person. Like I'm not, you know, these little minor injuries and stuff. I'm gonna play through them and tough mindset wise.

59:55 But even as little kids, like if they fell down, I would not ask if they're okay. I would just look at them and say, get up, you know, like they'll, you know, 'cause if they fall down, you

1:00:03 ask them if they're okay, then they're just thinking they're supposed to be hurt And they get attention. Yeah, it's like they're, you're almost like coaching them to be hurt all the time. Yeah.

1:00:12 I would flick them wherever it hurt that they say. When they're little, and I knew it wasn't a real injury. Right, yeah. And they'd fall down and they'd start crying about their shin or something.

1:00:20 I'd say, hey, where's that? Where's it hurt? Let me see it. Let me see it. And then I would just flick it really hard. Just to, and I, when I knew they weren't, 'cause training them to,

1:00:29 okay, if you're hurt, you better really be hurt. 'Cause if you're not, like I'm just gonna make sure it hurts. Right. And to train them to have a killer instinct too like not literal

1:00:37 relationship, but like. Hopefully when they get older, they'll kind of have that mindset. If they see somebody hobbling around, but they know that person's not really hurt, they're going to

1:00:44 attack and sports wise. Yeah. And I mean, grit is the characteristic that defines success in this world. I mean, it's not intelligence because somebody can always be smarter than you. It's not

1:00:57 good looks because somebody can always be better looking than you are. It really is grit. Yeah. Grit, like determination to a little bit. I mean, same kind of thing But I was thinking about this

1:01:07 as last year of NFL football wise, like, and I was, I watched my kids play baseball. There's certain people that they just find a way to get the job done. They may not be the most talented. They

1:01:19 may not, you know, but they will, they find like tight end wise or certain guys just find a way to catch the ball. They find a way to get their block done. And I was just, you know, as a coach,

1:01:29 anybody can coach the playbook And I'm trying to coach these guys on mindset, you know, motivation, understanding of why they're doing certain things. take, you know, obviously technique, but

1:01:39 that's what a lot of it comes out to me. Like when you're talking about a tight end, as I'm coaching these guys, it's about the determination, the grit that they need to get that job done. And

1:01:47 certain guys are just have that mindset. Like I am not going to get beat. I am not going to get beat. I'm going to find a way to get this job done. It may not be the perfect technique, but I'm

1:01:57 going to have the mindset. This is any job. You know, I'm going to have the mindset that I am going to be successful. I'm going to win this battle, but I'm going to, it's not going to be false

1:02:05 confidence going to put the work in to be, to get to that point to be successful. But when it gets to game time, like just the grit and the determination to find a way to get the job done. Yeah.

1:02:15 It's only certain guys have that though. It's very rare, like even NFL wise. Yeah. You know, it's interesting when you, you know, everybody talks about, you know, prime time players and there

1:02:25 are guys that just show up on the lights or the brightest and all. Uh, I saw a study one time in baseball and it set up the Setup. kind of the premise of seventh inning or later, people coming to

1:02:40 bat where they're down by one run, whatever the premise was that you would say is a clutch situation. And they looked, they ranked everybody's statistics. What was interesting is there truly

1:02:53 weren't clutch players. There were just good players and bad players. And so the guy that hits 352 outs in the bottom of the seventh when you're down one run in the first inning with nobody on hits

1:03:05 350. There was one major league player that had like a 250 batting average and for some weird reason, late in games, he hit like 350. But outside of that, it was, who are the clutch players?

1:03:17 It's Derek Jeter. Well, he's good all the time - It's good, yeah - And that goes to your point of guys, you can't just turn it on, you know, you gotta put the work in, you gotta do all that -

1:03:27 And those guys like that, I'm sure just like Jeter, like they're good because they, you know, they obviously talented. but that's only gonna take you so far. You gotta have a baseline, but it's

1:03:37 just the mindset they have, the determination, the grit, like they are gonna be successful - Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, I mean, they say even in practice, those guys wouldn't take a moment

1:03:47 off - Yeah, they're always on. They're always,

1:03:50 every like baseball, 'cause my kids play baseball, and now I'm trying to get the mindset to my kids. Like every at bat is like the end of the world. It's like you're last at bat that you're alive.

1:04:00 That's how you gotta treat it You gotta be like dialed in, focused, not, you know, you're the most confident guy out there. That guy's not gonna strike you out or you're gonna barrel the ball up

1:04:09 and hit a line driver. If you're pitching like, that is your mound, you're gonna strike this guy out. And it's gotta be like that at all times. You may have thrown three great innings and the

1:04:18 fourth inning, you can't go out there and feel like you're confident. I mean, you or feel like you got it made, you're gonna be confident, but you gotta keep that same focus at all times. Like

1:04:26 first inning or last inning, like you're talking about, it's, they're always on So when they get in the crut, when they get in the big situation. there's no different, they're always like that.

1:04:35 Every play is like fourth and interest to them - So you're a Texas guy, so you'll appreciate this 'cause this isn't just athletics that applies to everything. Johnny Lee was playing the Houston

1:04:49 livestock show in rodeo back in the early 80s - Oh yeah, yeah - Right, and he got sick. And the rodeo committee sitting there going, the agent calls the night beforehand, I don't know if Johnny's

1:05:00 gonna be able to play tomorrow He's sick, he ate something, whatever it was. So they said, all right, call us the next morning. Phone call the next morning. And the rodeo committee sitting

1:05:10 there going, well, what are we gonna do? Johnny Lee can't play. And there was a guy that said, you're not gonna believe this. But I was in a bar and pick a spot, Austin, Central Texas

1:05:21 somewhere. There were 14 people in that bar that night. But I saw this singer. It was just one of the greatest singers I've ever seen. The guy went up there, put on the greatest show and all, I

1:05:31 think we ought to go get him. And the guy was like, the committee's like, well, we don't have a choice, that sounds great. George Strait was invited to play the Houston rodeo and that was what

1:05:42 made George Strait, George Strait, because he was a no name. He filled in at the last second. They literally sent a private plane for him, flew him back. He didn't even have a time for a sound

1:05:53 check. He just walked down on stage. He was George Strait and he blew up after that, right? He became the biggest country singer. And I tell my kids that all the time, what if he half asks that

1:06:05 bar show with 14 people in there? You know, what if he gets up there and screws around and doesn't give it as all like he did? That guy never would have put him on the stage at the rodeo - That is

1:06:15 an unbelievable story. I'm gonna have to look that one up - Yeah, it's actually true. Look at this - Google, Johnny Lee, George Strait, Houston rodeo. There's a Wikipedia page on it - 'Cause

1:06:25 I'm gonna be telling that story now when I'm talking to my players - You do need to fact check me. You've got to be long enough to know you got a fact check I'm gonna trust but verify that one. I

1:06:33 like that - That's an amazing story. And just when he gets to the rodeo, if you know he's playing that small bar and he gets to the rodeo and he's able to perform and put on the show. You know like

1:06:42 just the - 50, 000 people, 60, 000 people - In his mind he's always on. You know he's always, my wife's gonna love that story too 'cause she loves George Street - Well I hope it turns out to be

1:06:51 true. But it is close enough. James Casey you were cool to come on man. This is like a dream come true - Hey - I've been your, we said Sarah was your biggest fan. I hate to nudge her aside, but

1:07:03 I've always been your biggest fan - No I'm big fan of yours too. You've helped me out along the way and been very fortunate to get to know you when I was in college. And I mean I was thinking on the

1:07:12 drive down, it's 2007 so I mean it's been 15 years that we've known each other which sounds crazy. I still feel like I'm 21 in my mind - So let's go do this. We're gonna go get dinner. I'm gonna

1:07:24 pay for dinner because I finished second in my fantasy football league last year. And it was all based on you telling me Joe McSum was going to have a great year. He said, Joe is going to crush it

1:07:36 this year. So I drafted him in the third round and he led me to a victory. Well, he's going to have even better year next year, Joe. I'm going to keep the street going. Yeah. Cause for my job

1:07:47 and for our sake and our team, like he's going to be even better. This next year, there we go. Well, thanks so much for inviting me on - Absolutely.