J.J. Anselmi on Chuck Yates Needs a Job
0:20 everybody welcome to Chuck Yates needs a job the podcast you just missed the most compelling 27 minutes of a podcast ever recorded I've been sitting here with my guest JJ and some a who wrote this
0:34 really cool book about rock spring Wyoming we're getting into it we're talking about suicide porn all of this and your dumb shit host didn't push the record button but now the record button has been
0:48 pushed and anyway nice visiting with you JJ yeah yeah later man no worries good story of tech man that's all good yeah well JJ do this I hate to make you repeat yourself but tell me who you are I was
1:06 we were introduced by Michael Patrick Smith the good hand who had written a book and you were kind enough to send me a copy of your book which I actually read I've got a goal of reading one book a
1:18 month. Nice - This year, so check the box. I've done it once, but I was trying to figure out who you are and it kind of says writer grew up, rocks being rock dude. So - Yeah, I mean,
1:34 that's pretty much it. Before I was ever a writer, I was a little, you know, heavy metal, ashen kid. I think that music, you know, really grabbed me having grown up in a boom town, which is,
1:48 as you know, the subject of the book.
1:51 You know, that music just always kind of made sense to me on a deep level, you know, when I kind of found it when I was 12 and 13, which I think is when you really start stepping into your own as
2:01 a fan and you start really like developing tastes that aren't shaped by your parents necessarily - Circa, what year are you 12 or 13? When is that - Yeah, yeah, wait. So I was born in '85, so
2:15 let's see how fucking horrible my math is. So 97, I was 12. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, so you're kind of the second half of the 90s coming in and so you missed Smells Like Teen Spirit by Nirvana and
2:31 we had this world where literally the number one song in America was, Every Rose had its horn by poison and all the glam metal guys wore makeup and hair and all of a sudden these dudes show up and
2:46 plaid shirts and they sound like black Sabbath. You know - Yeah, and
2:53 trust - So who was, so you're 12, you're 13, you were kind of throwing out earlier when we were talking that you liked black Sabbath and the like, but who was kind of your jam? What sort of got
3:04 you into music - Yeah, man, I knew Sabbath and some kind of random stuff I'd see on the radio and I did know Nirvana grew up watching MTV and at like. In retrospect, what seems kind of its golden
3:20 age of like when you could just turn on the TV and actually discover new music, you know? It had a productive element to it. It wasn't just shitty reality TV, which is super entertaining, but I
3:33 think there's more value in what they used to do. But yeah, I'm on the first thing that really hit home with me in a huge way, whereas like this is my favorite band. I was writing their name on
3:45 every notebook. I had to have every shirt It was corn for sure - Oh cool. Have you seen the Netflix special on Woodstock 99 - I haven't watched that one, but I watched the HBO series. And I
3:60 remember when Woodstock 99 happened and just like how much is, you know, a 14 year old kid I wished I could have been there? And then of course, I'm like, you're so lucky that you could, you had
4:13 nothing to do with that because what a fucking nightmare, man.
4:17 I mean, check out that Woodstock 99. It's actually a great, great watch. It's a perfect, just kind of turn it on and just watch one night. But the back to back of a limp biscuit going crazy.
4:34 And look, cheese boy right here. I love me some limp biscuit - Totally - And then follow it up with corn. I mean, just the way they threw the crowd into the tizzy was just amazing - Oh, it's nuts.
4:46 That footage when corn starts up for a song is, it's unforgettable dude. And I think that song itself is fucking insane in its own right, but man, yeah, you're right. And it's funny in the other
5:00 documentary, how the promoters just still refuse to take any responsibility for like creating just this horrible disaster of a festival where people were literally bathing in shit. You know, and
5:15 waters were like 10 bucks in 99, which is like fucking crazy, you know - Yeah - And still playing it all, they're like, God, that Fred Durst. I'm like, shut the fuck up. What he was supposed
5:28 to do, dude - Yeah, Fred Durst did. So this is kind of wild you bring up corn 'cause I've got a corn story and I don't think I've ever shared this with the podcast before. And so I'll just kind of
5:43 lay it out on you 'cause it's a crazy story and it kind of will wrap into your book. So this is called eight years ago. I'm going through a separation, which ultimately unfortunately, wound up in
5:58 divorce. I mean, couples counseling with my wife. And anyway, we go to couples counseling on a Monday. It's, you know, 57 minutes into our 60 minute session.
6:13 when my ex-wife's like, Hey, I need to tell you something. I filed for divorce this morning. And I was like, Well, what - Yeah - But I was supposed to get on a plane in a couple hours and go
6:24 fundraise. So I was gonna be out of town that week, raising money and meet me, Kim, therapist, all just decided, Okay, go out of town and we'll just deal with this when we get back. Maybe the
6:35 break will be good. So devastated, distraught, all that stuff I get on a plane, I say, Yeah, a guy sits next to me and what's weird is a really good friend of mine, got on the plane and sat
6:48 literally the robe behind me. So I'm kinda sitting there and this guy turns to me and says, Hey, did you know I almost died? I was literally five minutes from death and this amazing thing happened
7:00 that saved my life. And I was like, Well, given that we just met, no, I didn't know that, but lay it on me. So he tells this amazing story about getting sick He had to get to the hospital. The
7:12 doctor said you need surgery. OR just happened to open up that afternoon. He got surgery when they got in. The surgeon was like, you die if you get surgery in two weeks. It's this crazy tale.
7:24 Anyway, just this amazing story. And I really wanted to share with this guy. This guy's name was Eric. He seemed like a great guy. But my buddy's sitting right behind me. So anyway, we get off
7:34 the plane. My buddy walks off and I turned to Eric. I go, hey man, my wife filed for divorce this morning Thank you for talking to me. I'm sorry I couldn't share. It's just that's a really good
7:44 friend of mine. And Eric looks at me and he goes, hey Chuck, do you know how many times in my 27 years I have talked to the person next to me on a plane? And I said, nah. And he goes, never.
7:56 You're the first person I've ever talked to on a plane. And I did it because God told me I needed to talk to you. And I was like, OK. So we actually kind of set a prayer. And he was really cool.
8:08 He wound up babysitting me for a year to going through the course. But the reason I tell that story is the tie in with corn is Brian Welch, who I think we were talking earlier, you said he goes by
8:22 head. That's Nick name in the band, the guitar player, tells the story in his autobiography about sitting at a computer ready to end it all. I don't know if there's a gun there or whatever, but
8:35 you know, the situation's pretty dire And he got an email from his best friend, a guy named Eric. And Eric said, God told me to tell you that I love you. And Brian kind of freaks out what the
8:48 hell, you know, or is it calls Eric, what the hell are you doing? And Eric's like, Man, God told me to tell you I love you. Anyway, Brian, of course, winds up going to church, turning his
8:60 life around, getting straight off drugs. I think in the autobiography, the email is even one of the pictures. I got this email that saved my life. And that's the guy Eric. And anyway, so it was
9:14 just crazy - Yeah, it's gnarly and,
9:19 dude, yeah, there's as much of an atheist as I like to say that I am. Yeah, those distress calls that go out into the universe, it
9:29 seems real to me, man. I mean, you know, to get into a real example, real fast when I was, you know, as you know, you can tell just from reading the jacket copy of my book, there was a super
9:39 high suicide rate where I'm from and in Wyoming as a whole. And I definitely, you know, grappled with a lot of thoughts, you know, in that direction when I was like 19 and 20, especially. And I,
9:56 you know, as a typical dude and I never said anything about it to anybody and really tried to play it cool, but I remember my best friend just like totally randomly one day it sounded, it was like
10:06 a, it felt like a total non sequitur for like what we were talking about. And he just said something about like, you know, essentially like don't, you shouldn't ever think about that. And it was
10:18 similar of like, the subtext was like, I love you, dude, and people love you. And it just, man, it stuck with me as like, whoa, what the fuck? You know, moment of,
10:34 I still think I'm an atheist, but I don't know, dude, I've gotten, if you would have asked me if I was an atheist when I was like 16, I would say like, yeah, fuck, you know, whatever. But
10:43 now I'm like, yeah, I guess, man, I don't fucking know - Well, so I've got the world's greatest priest. I get it in a Episcopal church and his name's Patrick. He's actually been on the podcast
10:55 a couple of times. Amazing guy, down to Earth guy. We'd love to have him on the podcast with us 'cause he likes music and all that. But anyway, I was telling him the story about Eric You know,
11:07 man, that was amazing. I really needed it. And God sent me an angel. And this guy was just perfect. Patrick looks at me and goes, Hey, man, if God's gonna send an angel, usually really
11:17 fucking good. God knows what he's doing on this shit. So yeah - Well, tell me do this. Kind of talk to me about Rock Springs, you know, why you wrote the book, growing up there. 'Cause like I
11:33 said, it was a great read. I enjoyed reading it - Well, thanks, man So, you know, Rock Springs, I think,
11:40 the older I get, the more I see it just like, it seems like such an American place, you know? And
11:49 yeah, I think everything about it from its ups and its downs, its positives and its negatives are just so American to me. And so anyway, the town started in the late 1800s. This dude who's doing
12:05 some you know, geological surveys, they found some coal in the area. And it was kind of a couple of years later is when Union Pacific was deciding where they would lay tracks, you know, through
12:18 Wyoming. And there was coal there, so it only made sense that they would do that because, you know, UP used to be a big coal, coal player for a long time. I don't know if they still have any
12:29 stake in that or whatever, but, um, so yeah, you know, coal was really the deciding factor in that town, even existing as a settlement. And that's really, where abouts in Wyoming, are we?
12:43 Southwest Southwest. So yeah, so there's, so yeah, just to paint a picture, it's not the, um, you know, it's not Jackson Hole in Yellowstone, I think, which is the popular, like when you
12:55 say Wyoming, that's kind of what people tend to think of And it's super pretty up there and you it's know,, just kind of crushingly beautiful, but, um, Where I'm from, it ain't like that. It's
13:07 more, yeah man, from like East Texas type shit of like just planes and lots of wind, but then it gets cold as fuck. And so you get the cold plus the windshield and the winters and it'll drop down
13:22 to like 20 degrees below zero. More of my dad texted me the other day and he said, it'd gone to like 40 degrees below zero, which is just fucked up - Wow -
13:33 Yeah, and so it's not like the Yellowstone type things. It's way more like open spaces, prairie planes. And so yeah man, it is a coal mining town. And you know, since it wasn't really
13:46 aesthetically pleasing in a lot of ways, the people who wound up there in a lot of ways were either like laborers in the coal mines and stuff or people who were kind of had services for those
13:60 laborers pretty much. And I think that's kind of being the heart of the town for a long time. You know, there's some crazy shit that happened. UP was
14:10 employing a bunch of Chinese immigrants in the late 1800s and they just figured like, why not just throw them in here with this mix of like all these other types of people in Wyoming and see how it
14:25 goes. And of course it didn't fucking go well, you know? So there was this pretty brutal racial riot in the late 1800s there And so the town always has always had this kind of violent, you know,
14:39 kind of tinged to it. And I think there was that that happened and then which was 1885. And then from there was kind of a standard Western coal mining boom town. I think when I watched Deadwood, a
14:53 lot of that would kind of rank true to me because it was like, you know, you get a lot of prostitution and just kind of a Wild West type shit man of people who kind of want to do whatever they want
15:04 to do. can do it in these types of places 'cause there's not as many people. And
15:10 yeah, you end up getting a lot more men than women, which is kind of like why the prostitution ends up going in there. And
15:20 so there's a lot of factors that was kind of a standard coal mining town for a long time. But then in the '70s, I went through this huge boom, which is really where my kind of story starts in a lot
15:30 of ways 'cause it's when my parents met. And that's like during that boom is like, why my mom's family even moved there in the first place. And so in a lot of ways, I'm a child of that boom, of
15:42 that '70s boom, which was, there was this huge coal-fueled power plant that opened just outside town. They created just a shitload of jobs and really high paying jobs. It's you could suddenly make
15:56 a living that's like comparable, if not higher, than a lot of people, if they had a college degree, and it's like just straight out of high school Even without graduating high school, you can
16:07 make some damn good money out there. In the mines, my dad was in the warehouse and then he dumped a lot of the, they had to dump all this like coal ash that after they would burn it. So that was
16:19 his job for a long time.
16:23 And yeah, man, it's just a gnarly town. And during that 70s boom, you again, you just got more of the prostitution and drugs and it ended up capturing the interest of Dan rather in 60 minutes
16:35 because suddenly here's this little town in Wyoming that is, you know, has a lot going on. There's a street through town called K Street where there's essentially open prostitution and it was kind
16:48 of allowed by the old timers to exist. And Dan rather caught wind of that and you know, went there with 60 minutes and did, they ended up doing two episodes and 77 about it. And
17:01 Man, it's a shitty reporting. It's really bad reporting - Well, most of the time it is. I, you know, my fellow Texan Dan, rather, I'm not a big fan of, but what I found kind of interesting
17:17 reading about this small town, the prostitution, is I went in kind of with the lens of, this is an extraction story - Totally - And this, you know, this boom and bust cycle happens to all these
17:33 towns and you get all of the prostitution, the drugs, et cetera, and you build infrastructure that then when the bust happens, doesn't get supported. And you know, isn't there a better way for
17:46 us to handle extraction - Yeah - Type stuff - Totally - But then trying to be intellectually honest, I grew up in a small town in Texas, Richmond. I lived there today. It's about 25 miles outside
17:57 of Houston. We had Mud Alley.
18:01 the administration, if you will, and Richmond kind of said, you stay on that side of the tracks. We won't do anything about it - Totally - So we had a little bit of that too. You know, Texas had
18:12 the famous chicken ranch and Lagrange that we did the movie on and that ZZ Top sang about. And so I was torn between this is, hey, this extraction story versus none. This is kind of the story of
18:26 America. You truth be told, it's probably all of that - It really is, man - Yeah, it really is all that. And yeah, it's, you know, I don't think it was unique. And I know a lot of people who
18:37 have in that way, especially compared to a lot of Texas towns, I know a lot of buddies and stuff like that who moved to Texas because, you know, their experiences in oil field tech or whatever
18:50 they do. And they can find a lot, I know a lot of people have found ended up finding good jobs in Texas, but yeah, the way it happened in Rock Springs was just so fucking extreme.
19:03 That boom was huge in itself, you know, it was just like suddenly the population of the town literally doubled overnight. And so you just have this town of like, there's very limited housing and
19:14 apartments available and she'll like that. So dudes are making a ton of money, but then you have guys who are just like living on top of each other in these little trailers and she'll like that, or
19:23 just living in tents, you know, and trying to find a good job and she'll like that And the Dan rather coverage really took it in a strange direction because you could really see like what happens
19:38 when national media coverage descends on a small town. And to me it was like an invasive species, you know, and because after that coverage, then the local officials were embarrassed and
19:50 essentially said, okay, we have to crack down on this. We can't just let the prostitution exist as openly anymore and we have to look like we're doing something, 'cause right now they felt they
20:01 had been looking. made to look kind of stupid or just kind of greasy or whatever. And so they ended up bringing in this dude named Ed Cantrell and he was like this, just this tough ass little
20:13 cowboy sheriff, and they kind of tasked him with cleaning up the town and he was really, I think he did it in a
20:22 lot of ways or how authorities and officials are. There's always like a million layers behind the person who's doing the action So of course it wasn't just Cantrell and there's a lot of people
20:35 pulling the strings and she liked that, but
20:38 Cantrell ended up bringing in this dude Michael Rosa, an undercover narcotics agent who had lived in New York to kind of help, you know, get rid of some of that shit. And then their relationship
20:50 just exploded and went south and long story short, Ed Cantrell ended up shooting his own undercover agent in the back of a car. You know, not not that long after those 60 minutes episodes came out
21:04 and so it's been just this like
21:08 I Think yeah, you're right the boomtown and extraction stories are all there But the way rock Springs has experienced it is so extreme man, but I think that's why it's good to Use the town as a lens
21:21 because then you can really see like Okay, here's here's what happens when we truly like when our only source of our economy is
21:32 extraction like here's really some of the paths and stuff and it can take and Of course, there's so many layers. Like I said, I think the Dan Rather shit is
21:40 It reminds me of like when you have You know kind of somebody older in your family and they discovered YouTube and Facebook and like the effect that that has on people I think the 60 minutes episodes
21:52 were like that to people because they even people in town believed all the shit they just believed everything that Dan Rather was kind of
22:01 presenting to them, even though a lot of it was like super sensationalized and out of context and all that stuff -
22:09 The thing I want one kind of like side in it just for history that in the book was, so Cam Trell goes to trial and he was defended by Gary Spence. I mean, the world famous defense lawyers - Yeah,
22:24 well that was, I think as far as I know, that was a case that God, Jerry made him famous. And as I tried to interview him, but I ended up interviewing his stepson. He was a really cool dude
22:38 named Chris Hawks. And
22:42 he had such an interesting, just different take on Cam Trell than like, because then of course once the Cam Trell murder happened, then the media came back in and there was like an AE on it
22:56 You had like New York Times doing coverage on the murder and stuff like that. But I think a lot of it was really, it was really easy to just kind of dismiss Cantrell as a murderer and then see, you
23:07 know, spent getting him off as like, oh, you know, classic good old boy shit. But talking to Chris Hawksman, it was just such as good nuance to the story of like, who Ed Cantrell actually was.
23:19 And he was talking about like, just growing up with the dude on the ranch and learning how to kind of handle a ranch from the guy. And stuff like that, they really give a human element that, you
23:31 know, I think is kind of missing when you just focus on those big sensational stories -
23:38 So something I was thinking reading the book and maybe there is no answer to this. Maybe you got to take on it. It just seems like, you know, you have the boom cycle of the extraction and you get
23:55 the flood of people in. And one of the things Michael Patrick Smith and I talked about when he came on the podcast is, you know, Navy SEALs actually look for applicants that have had a lot of
24:09 trauma in their life. They were abused because they are used to running on a hundred percent adrenaline all the time. And that serves you really well as a Navy SEAL. Right And for some degree,
24:23 Michael had a theory that the oil field was similar because it's a dangerous freaking job. I mean, you can diet any moment. It's very challenging. So people that can run on adrenaline are probably
24:38 really good out there. So a lot of times the people he was hanging out with in the bar, I mean, they were turning off the adrenaline drinking and the like. So I get kind of, you get the boom.
24:50 You get the money people like that into the community. Totally - Was there not an element though of being able to draw a line where that's the boom and the bust will go away, but us longtime
25:07 residents here that live here are going to in the boom time, take some money aside, get our kids to college, and have a normal life, or does it just so dominate the culture of a city that you
25:20 can't do anything about it - I think, yeah, there is, it was cool to talk to some longtime residents and they were like, you know, in all honesty, all that stuff going on didn't really affect us
25:34 that much. And I think that was cool, but then you got to think too, a lot of people who call that place home are kind of the type of dudes that you're talking about who can really function in
25:45 these like super dangerous industrial jobs and do a good job with it and not get themselves and everyone else killed. You know, you have that kind of like super intense work experience and then
25:58 you're trying to find some way to turn it off. And really that's kind of even when the boom goes away, that's still the economy there, you know, on the labor of like working in coal mines and
26:08 she'll like that. And so I think a lot of the town's residents are really like those, that type of people too of like, man, me and my dad's friends, or me and my friends, dads, you know, who
26:22 came of age during that boom,
26:25 they just never really learned how to turn that out. It's like going to mellow mode because yeah, I think the adrenaline would get pumping when they're partying too. And it's just extremes from
26:36 every angle and they kind of have a hard time like trying to find some, you know, some kind of quiet space in their own minds, I guess Here's thing I thought cool kind of that may have worked into
26:50 that dynamic and. this almost sounds silly to say, but I actually was believing it, particularly when I was reading it, is the wind - Yeah - And just the freaking wind drives you crazy. I need to
27:04 go drink this off, you know - Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another whole other beast in itself of like, so you have all this labor and the partying and stuff that naturally goes with it. And then
27:15 you take into account that the wind is just knocking you on your ass constantly And even if it's in the middle of the summer and warm and you're getting blasted by wind, it's
27:29 not usually that super fun to go out into. And then especially during the winter, when you get any wind and it starts, you know,
27:40 dropping the temperatures down with a wind chill and it really starts getting into the like negative 20s and 30s and my dad texted me the other day and said it was into the negative 40s. which is
27:53 extreme, but not totally out of my experience of it for sure. Yeah, I think that's really going to press you to be indoors. And if you can find a constructive way to deal with all that indoors
28:08 time, good on you, but I don't think a lot of it's hard. It's really hard, man, to deal with that boredom. And a lot of people do just look for it in the bottle or needle or kind of whatever it
28:22 is. I was like, you know, I sort of, I got it because one time I went to Homer, Alaska for four or five days and I went July 4th. OK. And so anyway, we land in Homer, buddies playing in a bar,
28:38 his band. So we go see it and they, you know, this is Alaska. So they play till one in the morning, right? Right. I'm sitting there on vacation pounding away at vodka I walk outside and it's
28:50 perfectly sunny, right? That's fucking weird - You know, they have sun, I think 23 hours a day during the summer, and that's where I'll vodka for two years 'cause I'm like, Holy shit, I'm
29:01 seeing, you know - Yeah - But you hear about how the darkness during the winter induces a lot of the same thing you're talking about, anxiety, have to be inside, it's cold, find things to do,
29:16 and how the sun kind of did it to me for four days and I like sunshine - Yeah, man, and I don't think, you know, considering that kind of extreme environment that it's any coincidence that Alaskan,
29:30 Wyoming are always kind of going back and
29:34 forth for who has the highest suicide rate of any state in the country, man, and I think that's an unfortunate reality of all those things, and if it's not just the environment, then again, you
29:48 know, you get those harsh jobs It busts your ass, man. Literally, my dad's back is just totally fucked up and it was a pretty young age for him. And it's kind of early 50s when he had herniated
30:04 discs in his back and couldn't really work out there anymore. And that's a pretty common rock spring story. And so again, it's just all these swirling factors that intermingle and then the result
30:17 is, yeah, you get a lot of suicide and addiction, man. Yeah, wow. Okay, so I'm sorry, I'm like putting you under the spotlight on the book review here, but another thought I had reading the
30:32 book, and there were definitely some elements, some evidence, but
30:38 if you made me give you an answer to this question, do the people actually, despite its problems, love rock springs? I don't know what the answer would be to that. So I'd like to hear your take
30:53 on what you think people would say to that. I think the answer is yes. And to me, that was one of the biggest gifts that I got from this book project because, you know, to kind of back up into my
31:06 own youth as a kid, you know, listening to metal. I fucking hated growing up there, man. It was, you know, because you don't understand all these historical contexts and, you know, kind of
31:18 like the social and economic factors of why it is like it is and stuff like that. And so, you know, as a kid, I was just like, I fucking hate this place, dude. I do not like this. You know,
31:28 me and my friends are dads partied. And so like our way of rebelling was to be straight edge, which is, you know, it's funny and, you know, not built to last for sure. But
31:43 yeah, I think, you know, considering all those things and like the chip on my shoulder, I've carried with me for years and even well into my 20s. writing this book and talking to people who just
31:54 went through the craziest fucking trauma, they're from suicidal ideation to like all of us have known,
32:03 just multiple people who've killed themselves, which is to me, that's kind of one thing I realized like when I first moved away from Rock Springs, I remember having the realization of like, dude,
32:16 it's not normal to know like, I've known a dozen people who've killed themselves, not all close friends necessarily, but at least acquaintances and more than half of those were people who were
32:30 directly in my life and shit like that. And I realized that that was not normal. You know, I was like, man, that is weird. That is very strange. But when you're there, it is, it's part of the
32:40 culture. It's like what everybody grows up with. And so long story short, I had a big chip on my shoulder about the placement. I've seen some loved ones go through some just gnarly shit there. I
32:53 think that chip on the shoulder is understandable in a lot of ways, but as I was doing the interviews from this book and hearing from people who experienced way worse trauma than I ever did or could
33:05 even really imagine, invariably people would say toward the end, that place made me resilient as shit. Not only that, it teaches you to
33:16 it really gives you a DIY ethic in a lot of ways because you have to learn to make something out of nothing. The music scene when we were young was a perfect example of there was no punk or metal
33:29 scene and what we created might have been laughable to people in cities, but we fucking did it ourselves, man. There's a lot of value in those lessons and shit like that.
33:40 People I talked to and invariably said, I would not want to have grown up in another place. And to me, you know, you had -
33:50 It's mind-blowing to hear that from people who like, they're talking about just this crazy homophobia, growing up as a gay kid there, just like gnarly racism and this is constant barrage of
34:02 negative shit like that. And still at the end of the interview, they're like, I would not wanna be from anywhere else. And I think really that's the gift that I've carried with me after this
34:10 project of like, I
34:13 think I've always been proud to be from Wyoming and from Rock Springs, but after that, I'm like, dude, I'm so thankful to be from there. And not just like, I live in Long Beach, California now
34:24 and it's in LA County and I'm just so grateful that I know how to cope with like, not a lot going on or like, you can just always do something for yourself and it just gives you a different
34:38 perspective. I think it really came in handy during COVID, you know?
34:43 That's interesting because when I read the book and this I You know, when I read the book, I could detect some, you know, but I loved it here. 'Cause that said a few times during the book or I'm
34:58 glad I'm from here. I didn't see that come out and that may have just been me missing it. So that's really cool to hear. 'Cause I almost saw it as a little bit of Stockholm syndrome. You know, we
35:11 were all in this horrible place and, you know, we didn't know any better That's why we're glad we were from there. So it's cool to hear you say that. 'Cause I, you know, I do totally believe
35:25 that, you know, growing up in my small town, Richmond, Texas, we all got along. We were about 50 Hispanic, 25 black, 25 white. That's why we all got along pretty well. And I think it was
35:39 because we were so terrorized by the football coaches. I mean, they used every racial slur they could. I mean, they call me the inward. I was like, what? Huh? But they all yelled at us. So we
35:52 all had to bind together. It's like - Totally. Yeah. So now that's interesting to hear. Because - Yeah,
36:03 it's in the - the last chapter is called What We've Learned from the Sage Brush. And it's really dedicated to that stuff. And I think even the Sage Brush is like the main plant life there It's like
36:17 a lot of planes. And you can see forever. And it can seem kind of bleak. But you really have to just learn how to look at it from a different perspective. And to me, now I'm like, Sage Brush is
36:28 not only pretty, but it says this tough mother fucking plant. Like Sage Brush can take whatever the fuck you throw at it, dude.
36:38 So I think in a lot of ways, the people who grow up there, you're kind of like the Sage Brush. You
36:43 have to be resilient and like, man, what a quality to have is it. human adult, you know, if you can be resilient, dude, that's life in a lot of ways - That's, that's, that's really cool to
36:56 hear. The, I worry about my kids growing up because my kids have been handed everything, you know, humanly possible, great, great education and, and all that. And I think it was kinky freedom
37:10 and that said the worst preparation for life is a happy childhood, you know - There's, there's a lot of truth in that. So, JJ. do this for me. I'm a throw the book in front of the camera so
37:24 people can see the cover. Give us the name, give us where people can get it - Sure - And give us, give us your plug on the book - Yeah, man. So the book is called Out Here On Our Own, An Oral
37:36 History of an American Boomtown.
37:40 Written by me, JJ. Anselme And then I was lucky enough to collaborate with. the super talented photographer named Jordan Utley, which was kind of, when I was working on the project and I like
37:54 fell into place that Jordan could take photographs for it, it was like that final puzzle piece, man. And then, but yeah, it's, you know, I think my first book is a memoir about growing up in
38:05 Rock Springs. So yeah - Yeah, the photography was awesome - Oh yeah, man. And you can go to his side, Jordan Utley, and see some of that stuff, you know, more blown up and order prints or,
38:19 you know, if that strikes her fancy. But my first book was a memoir I've grown up in Rock Springs. It definitely is more of that kind of like chip on your shoulder type perspective, which I wrote
38:31 it when I was, you know, I was like 26 to like 29 when I wrote it. So I was pretty young still, you know? And then this book,
38:42 it's, all other people's stories. And so it was just to me a way, a really fun project to work on in that like,
38:52 I was doing interviews with all these people that some of them I knew and then some of them I didn't. And then, you know, we really got to know each other on a different level. And man, when
39:02 people are telling me some of their stories about kind of like what I mentioned of what it was like to grow up as a black kid there, what it was like to grow up as a gay kid and a place where it was
39:11 like pretty clear that, you weren't welcome in a lot of ways from some people, not from everybody, of course, you know. But I think the impact ends up happening unfortunately from the some shitty
39:27 people. But when people are telling me those stories, I was just like, damn, dude, this isn't just my story anymore. This is like dead fucking serious of these people trusting me with their
39:37 stories. And so they're trusting me to try and put it into this book to actually capture where we're from and.
39:45 Hopefully I did it, but yeah, they seem to have liked it, man. But it was intense in a lot of ways for sure, because like I said, those stories aren't mine, dude. Those experiences, you know
39:56 - And, you know, as I've, so, you know, I guess now I'm kind of up to, I've probably done a hundred of these podcasts or so, and I do another one called BDE, Big Digital Energy. We call it
40:10 the summary of the energy business for people that think Jim Kramer sucks - Sure - But, you know, so I've done maybe a hundred of those as well. The 200 podcasts I've done, I've become incredibly
40:24 convinced that oral histories are a unique medium. They just are - They really are - And actually oral histories where multiple people are sharing the stories, either collaborating or in the same
40:39 room or whatever, it is really powerful stuff, but definitely need to. needs to be captured. So I love the fact you did that in the book - Thanks, man. And like you said, I mean, as you well
40:51 know, you know, there's some real human connection that happens during the interviews and all that stuff that is so valuable. And you know, I was doing these interviews from, I came up with the
41:05 idea to do it as a oral, or to tell the story of the town, as an oral history in like late 2019 And then, you know, the shit happened. And I originally planned to go back to Wyoming in summer of
41:18 2020 and do all the interviews. And, and I'll honestly, I probably would have done it if my wife also got pregnant, like during that early part of that summer. So at that point, you know, I was
41:31 like, there's no fucking way I'm like jeopardizing anything that's going on in the home front. And so I did all the interviews by phone and, man, during that isolation to feel connected with
41:41 people from my hometown and Just hearing their experiences of like, I knew a lot of the people, like I said, and you know, was friends with a lot of people. And like, you know, knew some
41:55 acquaintances and stuff were dealing with racism and stuff like that. But actually hearing the stories, man, I was like, Holy fuck, dude. I had no idea it was like that. And I think through
42:05 that, we became closer, you know? I think it's healing for a lot of people. Hopefully, I know it's healing for me And man, what a process of to do a book versus, you know, like otherwise
42:18 you're literally alone at your desk, you know, kind of just writing or like doing some research and stuff. But otherwise writing is a pretty, you know, it doesn't have to, it's no brainer that
42:31 it's a pretty solitary exercise. So I think to actually make it social was really cool. It was also like, you know, so many moving pieces and she liked that. And we're gonna have some novels now,
42:44 'cause I wanna get back to the solitary shit for a little while, but I won't probably write another oral history someday - Yeah,
42:52 Ned, kind of the thing I'll close on, 'cause you just teed it up perfectly. Literally came from early in the book. I think Thomas Collins said, I grew up with the feeling that it was somehow
43:06 disloyal to harbor thoughts of leaving rock springs - Yeah, man - Yeah, that's that kind of personal connection that even bad shit and all this going on, I still felt enough of a connection that I
43:22 didn't wanna leave, or at least talk about leaving - Yeah, his story was so cool. And talk about, like, people say rock springs will always be there for its own. And I really saw that time and
43:38 again in this project
43:41 Once I knew to write an oral history, I was like, well, how the fuck do I cover? Like the early 1900s is an oral history. Who was alive during then, you know? And so the local museum let me use
43:53 huge portions from a book they published, which is Thomas Cullen's book. He's like, man, what a fucking cool rock springs thing that they did that. And his experiences are just like you said,
44:03 it's so cool that he found that pride and the value. And his experience is no joke, dude His dad was going into those old school coal mines where they're hauling the shit out with fucking horses.
44:18 And like, you know, death is just constant from the cave-ins. And I think one of the things that I will never forget in his memoir that I included in my book was, he talked about the miners'
44:30 tattoos. And it was, what he would say with his dad?
44:35 You know, like they had all these small cuts on their hands, but then the cold dust would get in there and heal in their skin. So it looked like a bunch of little tiny tattoos. It's like, what a
44:46 fucking cool metaphor for the place, dude - Yeah, that was, that's wild. Well, dude, you were really cool to come on the podcast. It was great to talk about it. And I really enjoyed the book
45:00 And I would encourage anyone that the list and go grab it. Where can we get it? Amazon, all the typical places - Yeah, typical places, Amazon, or if you want to support indie bookstores,
45:15 bookshoporg is always a good one. You can also get it directly from the publisher, Bison Books, which is through University of Nebraska.
45:26 But yeah, thanks so much, Chuck. I've been excited to come on this and
45:31 especially from somebody from the industry. you know, from the actual oil and gas industry and I've done some research listening to your other podcasts and it's fascinating, man. What a fucking
45:43 crazy industry and I'd love to hear more about your experience at some point, man, of just, yeah - Yeah, let's do it. I'll get out to California
45:55 and we'll go grab a beer 'cause the one thing I do believe about our industry and I don't know if I'm in the majority but I'm in the minority but I will say this is, look, bad shit happens in oil
46:09 and gas - Yeah, totally - It does a lot of good and I think getting kind of all of the stories out and being honest and being real with it is the best thing we can do to protect our industry. I
46:22 think if we cover things up or we sweep it under the rug or we put a litmus test on people, you know, Unless this guy, you know, votes Republican in his pro life. and does this, this, and this,
46:35 we're not gonna support that person. We're gonna wind up with a tent that has like 12 people in it supporting oil and gas. So I love hearing the story 'cause extraction and the boom bust, I mean,
46:50 we can't run from that. We gotta own that in our industry. It's just, that's what we do. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to learn from it and do better next time - Totally, man And I don't
47:03 think, I'm not one of those people who totally says like, yeah, I really, especially the older I get, I try and see those positives. And man, I think, you know, kind of like hydraulic
47:16 fracturing and shale, the thing I keep coming back to is just, it makes a lot of sense to me is American energy security. And so really like you got away, like are we gonna develop our own shit?
47:29 And like you said, like we gotta look at All the negatives that come with it, 'cause there are negatives like anything else in life. Or do we continue to be just totally dependent on, you know,
47:40 places like Saudi Arabian shit that are just very unpredictable and they don't have a US. best interest at heart, you know - And I will say this too. They do not produce the product to the same
47:54 standards we do in terms of cleanliness and focus on the environment And as I always say on the podcast, you know, when it comes to the atmosphere, there's not a peeing and a non-pying portion of
48:09 the pool, you know? I mean, it's one, if you produce it in America, great. If you produce it in Saudi Arabia, you probably produced it a little dirtier, you know - Yeah, definitely man. And
48:23 I really, you know, take that stuff into account
48:29 And I am a, you know, I'm still the, you know, kind of liberal leftist or whatever, although it seems like we're on a similar page of like, I'm so fucking done with division, dude. I don't
48:39 want to. I'm so sick of division. I love America, man. I'd really love to talk to people. And I believe in what America is and can be. And anyway, yes, but I think natural gas is a huge
48:54 component of like, you can tie that in with the renewals and have all these tiny pieces working together or renewables and have these pieces working together to create something that in the end is
49:06 better for us as a people, you know.
49:12 And my point is it's so important that we ought to have an intellectually honest discussion of the trade-offs. Yeah, totally. And a pro oil and gas guy ought to be honest about, hey, we do cause
49:24 pollution. We are, you know, putting CO2 in the air.
49:30 The other side ought to be, hey, you do a lot of good. I mean, you want to talk about the world being a better place. It really has to do with cheap energy. And how do we balance that coming
49:42 forward? Because my political leanings are, I'm kind of a die-hard libertarian. But I also truly believe that rules and regulations and all that need to be a political type process that has buy-in
50:01 from a lot of people. And so I need to
50:06 give you something for us to compromise that way we all buy into it. If you jam stuff down at 501 every time, people don't buy in and you lose faith in the whole system itself, and that's really
50:20 bad - It really is. And I think unfortunately, that seems to be where we are, you know, in America and I hope things get better, but. Yeah, man, like I said, that's one of the reasons I was
50:33 really excited to come on here is I knew, I'm
50:38 sick of Echo Chambers, not only division, but I'm also sick of just Echo Chambers where we won't talk to each other and we only wanna have our own beliefs reinforced. And I'm like, that's not how
50:49 we get smarter, man. And that's not good for you, I don't think - Yeah, that's right - That's from the Leafs reinforced - That's, no, that's absolutely right 'Cause the Echo Chamber can lead to
51:01 a lot of dopamine being produced in your brain - Yeah - But at the end of the day, we all know too much dopamine's a bad thing - Yeah - It just is - Yeah, man, I tried out the Mastodon thing as
51:14 like, you know, stuff was happening with my, I never thought Twitter was gonna go away. I never believed that, but I was just curious about Mastodon because, you know, the idea is that it can't
51:23 be bought out, you know, buy somebody like Elon Musk because it has so many servers And I've been on there. good God, dude, this is a fucking leftist echo chamber like no other man. And that's
51:35 coming from a little socialist democratic kid, you know, dude, you know, I have a little socialist hat and stuff that I, I believe all that shit. But I'm like, good God, dude, this is a
51:46 fucking horrible echo chamber.
51:50 That's, that's funny. And I probably should whisper this and stand it. But some of my energy loud, proud brother and or the same way on the other side So JJ, you were, you were really cool to
52:03 come on. This was, this was great. And like I said to readers, go get the book, man. The book's really good. Thanks so much Chuck. And yeah, man, more than a pleasure to talk to you, dude.
