Chuck Yates Needs A Job

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1:10 Hey everybody, welcome to Chuck Yates. Needs a job, the podcast. My guests today, Daniel Hartz - Hey, how are you - Good to have you on, dude - It's good to see you - It's been forever - It is

1:20 - What was the last time we hung out - Yeah, so it's been like 10 years. I remember sitting in the Kane Anderson Anderson offices offices -. Oh Oh, I, I kind kinda of broke broke out out the the

1:28 hives hives when when you you said said that that -. Yeah Yeah. Okay,. we We were were talking talking energy energy.. We We were were talking talking long long live live production production

1:35 and and things things were were pretty pretty good good. It. It was was 2013 2013 -. Oh Oh,, yeah yeah,, those those were were good good days days -. Yeah Yeah,. it's It's been been like

1:42 like a a lifetime lifetime - That that has has been been that that long long ago ago.. And And you you notice notice I I didn't didn't say say what what company company you're you're with with

1:47 'cause because who who are are you you with with these these days days -? Yeah Yeah,, I'd I'd like like to to think think I'm I'm with with the the universe universe.. You're

1:53 Not not metaphysically metaphysically -. Yeah Yeah, no No,, literally literally I'm I'm with with the the universe universe.. No No,, so I I, so I started started a a company company a a year

1:60 year and and a half a half ago ago called called White White Hawk Hawk Energy Energy. and And we'll we'll get get into into it it.. I I think think there's there's a a lot lot to to talk talk about

2:06 about,. But But first first,, I I think think what's what's super super exciting exciting. is is we we popped popped the the balloon balloon.. The spy The spy balloon balloon is is down down

2:14 and and,, you you know know,, I'm I'm a a little little disappointed disappointed.. I I had had thought thought that that balloon balloon was was a a UFO UFO.. I I thought thought for for sure

2:21 sure the the UFO UFO was was out out there there. We we finally finally had had been been visited visited,. but it's it's not not. - Okay Okay,, so so I I have have a a take take on on this this..

2:29 So So I I think think what what we're we're gonna going to do do when when we we sift sift through through all all the the rubbish rubbish and and, you you know know, all all the the particles

2:36 particles and and the the bits bits and and all all that that for for the the balloon balloon,, we're we're not not gonna going to really really find find anything anything.. We're We're not not

2:41 going gonna to find find any any surveillance surveillance equipment equipment,, no no transmission transmission type type stuff stuff.. I I think think what what they they were were doing doing

2:47 is is testing testing weather weather patterns patterns because because I I think think the the next next pandemic pandemic is is gonna going to be be airborne airborne.. So So they they were were

2:55 releasing releasing the the balloon balloon just just to to see see could could they they guide guide it it over over the the United United States States?. And So so you've you've got got

3:01 potentially a potentially a pandemic pandemic release release from from there there of of some some sort sort of of virus virus or or something something. Or Or could could you you possibly possibly

3:08 float float something something that that - becomes becomes one one of of the the blockers blockers of of communication communication,, ie ie., can can we we shut shut down down a a power power

3:15 plant plant or or something something?? And And so so I I think think they they were were testing testing weather weather patterns patterns. But, but that's that's my my take take -. I I mean

3:20 mean,, I I think think that's that's super super interesting interesting and and super super possible possible.. I I mean mean,, I I think think,, I I don't don't know know if if you've you've

3:26 ever ever seen seen. the the studies studies of of like like interstellar and interstellar and meteoric meteoric

3:35 landings landings coming coming in in and and the the type type of of viruses viruses that that those those could could have have and and the the effect effect on on the the population population..

3:42 I I think think it it was was, what what was was it it, the the last last pandemic pandemic in in 1918? 1918? The, it was, It it was crazily crazily, it It broke broke out out in in two two

3:52 different different places places across across two two different different continents continents on on the the same same day day.. And And so so,, and and of of course course back back then then

3:59 you you didn't didn't travel travel by by plane plane and and the the idea idea that that it it came came in in two two different different places places,, it it seems seems entirely entirely

4:04 possible possible that that it it came came from from actually actually outer outer space space through through some some sort sort of of media meteor.. Well, Well I, I didn't didn't know know

4:11 that that.. Yeah So. one One thing thing I I knew knew about about the the 1918 1918 Spanish Spanish flu flu is is the the history history of of pandemics pandemics are are as as you you have have

4:20 mutations mutations in in the the virus virus,. generally Generally speaking speaking,, it it becomes becomes less less virulent virulent,, right right?? Because Because you've you've got got

4:26 your. your guard guard up up,, if if you you have have a a more more dangerous dangerous strain strain,, the the virus virus dies dies with with the the host host,. The the host host gets gets

4:33 isolated isolated. It, it can't can't spread spread, right, right?? Right. And And 1918 1918, the, the Spanish Spanish flu flu was was different different because because we we had had trench

4:40 trench warfare warfare going going on on in in World World War War I. I. So So what what would would they they do do if if you you got got sick sick in in the the trench trench?? They They put put

4:46 you you on on an an ambulance ambulance,, they they bushed bushed 200 you you 200 miles miles away away,, go go to a hospital hospital that that had had 500 500 people people on on it it. So So

4:52 you you just just,, you you pass pass the the virus virus to to more more people people., And and that's that's why why it it was was so so bad bad,. you know, but But I I mean mean,, as as

4:58 we we saw saw with with COVID COVID,, every every variant variant was was less less virulent virulent., And and that's that's the the history history of of pandemics pandemics.. But But I I

5:04 didn't didn't know know about about the,

5:06 the, so so where where did did the the two two places places start start?? I I can't can't say say. I don't I want want to to give give you you bad bad information information., But but I I mean

5:12 mean,, literally literally halfway halfway around around the the world world,, others others can can look look it it up and up. And and I I mean mean,, there's there's just just super super

5:19 interesting interesting,, interesting interesting things things.. I I think think it's it's entirely entirely likely likely that that whatever whatever the the balloon balloon was was is is

5:26 different different. than than whatever whatever we we think think it it was was.. Yeah. And And the the reasons reasons for for it it and and what's what's going going on on.. But But in in any

5:32 any case case,, I I think think it's it's a a good good transition transition, actually actually, into into energy energy and and what what we're we're here here to to talk talk about about,,

5:37 which which really really, really, really,. I I love love to to hear hear you you explain explain that that. But. But go go ahead ahead.. Yeah Yeah,, I I think think it's not a history it's

5:41 not an history. I. I mean mean,, so so I'm I'm with with White White Hawk Hawk Energy energy,, but but I I really really wanted wanted to to,, yeah yeah,, I I thought thought we we could

5:46 could talk talk about about my my history history and and really where I really where I started started not not about about Daniel Daniel Hers Hers per per se se, but, but really really. go back I

5:55 I love love dropping dropping the the third third person person pretty pretty quick quick.. That's That's awesome awesome. Can. Can we we do do that that the the whole whole time time?? Yeah

5:59 Yeah.. I'll I'll be be fatty fatty.. You You be be Daniel Daniel.. It's It's great great.. Perfect Perfect. So So where'd where'd you you start start?? Yeah Yeah, so. So I I started

6:05 started,, I I grew grew up up in in Wisconsin Wisconsin.. Okay. I think I think it's it's extremely extremely important important to to mention mention that that,. And and this this is is a a

6:10 little little bit bit of of a a secret secret of of mine mine.. It's It's important important to to mention mention that that because because I I live live just just outside outside of of New New

6:15 York York City City and and I've I've worked worked in in New New York York City City for for 24 24 years years.. But But I'm I'm not not a a New New Yorker Yorker.. I'm I'm a a normal normal

6:21 person person.. I'm no No offense offense to to New New Yorkers Yorkers. and And I'll I'll offend offend a a bunch bunch of of people people today today. I, I suspect suspect.. But But I I grew

6:28 grew up up in in Wisconsin Wisconsin,, went went to to Indiana Indiana University University,, Hoosiers Hoosiers,, Go Go Hoosiers Hoosiers.. And then, but But I I knew knew I I wanted wanted

6:36 to build to build businesses businesses. I I knew knew from from the the time time I I was was 14 14 on on.. And And I I met met my my now now wife wife of of almost almost 20 20 years years in in

6:43 college college and and learned learned about about investment investment banking banking.. She's She's from from New New Jersey Jersey,, the the town town we we live live in in, currently

6:48 currently.. And And I I learned learned from from her her and and really really her her sister sister,, who who was is dating dating a a guy guy who who is was at at Solomon Solomon Smith Smith

6:54 Barney Barney,, investment investment banking banking is is the the best best way way to to learn learn the the most most as as quickly quickly as as possible possible and and be be exposed exposed

7:00 to to CEOs. Train for CEOs. Train for Wall Wall Street Street,, train train for for Main Main Street Street.. Yeah Yeah. And so I I said said,, you you know know what what,? I'm I'm going

7:06 gonna to go go work work in in investment investment bank. banking. Now Now, I I didn't didn't appreciate appreciate that that it's it's a a bit bit of of a a tough tough path path,, especially

7:11 especially from from Indiana Indiana University University,, which which is is great great because because part part of of my my experience experience is is, you know, the the less less I I know

7:19 know,, the the better better.. And And so so I I didn't didn't know know that that,, oh oh,, it's it's highly highly unlikely unlikely. I I just just said said, I'm I'm gonna gonna go go do

7:24 do that that - - Right Right. - And so I went and did it. And I got a a job job actually actually with with a a group group, with a with a group group that that had had just just left left Solomon

7:32 Solomon Smith Smith Barney Barney, starting starting the the energy energy group group at at Bank Bank of of America America Securities securities, led led by by a a guy guy you you may may know

7:37 know Chad Chad Weiss Weiss,. you You remember remember Chad Chad? - No, no, I remember I remember not -. Is Was it NBC it on BC? So? So Chad Chad ran ran the the group group and and then then

7:43 a a guy guy, Vince Vince Cubbage Cabbage -. Yeah Yeah. - You You know know,, Vince Vince? - Well Well,, so so I owned, I I owned owned two two, planes, I owned owned, 'cause was now now on

7:52 I'm poor poor, that that I'm I'm unemployed unemployed by by you you - I used to out that. I I don't. I owned owned, I owned two two planes planes with with his his brother brother, Matt Matt.

7:59 And and it it was was the the tail tail end end of of the the second second plane plane that we finally that we finally put put together together that that,, uh, Vince is your brother? Duh, That

8:08 that makes makes sense sense.. Oh That's, that's amazing amazing. Cause. Because, cause I I went went to to Rice Rice undergrad undergrad with with Eddie Eddie Gay Gay.. Or Or I I guess guess

8:14 he he was was Ed Ed Gay Gay when when he he was was on on Wall Wall Street Street,, but but Ed Ed was was part part of of that that group group at at Smith Smith Barney Barney.. Yeah Yeah.. But

8:19 But he he didn't didn't go go to to Bank Bank of of America America.. So So Vince Vince,, uh, Vince Vince is is the the greatest greatest. I. I spoke spoke to to Vince Vince a a week week or or

8:26 two two. ago ago. He. He just just sold sold his his most most recent recent company company to to Shell Shell,, which which was was amazing amazing. I I think think a a battery battery storage

8:32 storage company company called called like like Volta Volta or or Volta's Voltus.. In In any any case case,, Vince Vince was was my my first first mentor mentor and and hired hired me me.. He He

8:39 said said his his interview interview question question was was,, how how many many days days in in a a row row have have you you been been able able to to stay stay up up?? And And of of course

8:45 course,, I I was was in in a a fraternity fraternity at at Indiana Indiana.. So So I I had had actually actually been been forced forced to to stay stay up out for for many many days days in in a

8:50 a row row and and been been tortured tortured,, which which is is great great.. And And so so Vince Vince is is like like,, okay okay,, that's that's great great. So So I I started started an

8:56 an investment investment banking banking in in 1999 1999 in in the the energy energy group group and and really really helped held. in And that was in New New York York. in In New New York York at

9:03 at 9 nine West West 57th, the 57, the old old Montgomery Montgomery Securities Securities.. It's It's, oh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,. what What I I love love and and I I just just find find

9:10 so so much much symmetry symmetry in in this this world world is is nine 9 West West. And and in in particular particular the, 48th the 48th floor floor was was the the home home of of RJR RJR

9:18 Nabisco Nabisco and and Ross Ross Johnson Johnson, who who is is the the CEO CEO. and And for for those those who who haven't haven't read read Barbarians our Barians at at the the gate gate. or or

9:26 seen seen the the movie movie. I. I haven't haven't seen seen the the movie movie,, but but read read. Oh Oh Tim's, James Garner Garner so. So good good.. It's It's amazing. Well it's

9:32 amazing,. Well the the book book in in the the story story is is amazing amazing. essentially Essentially, it's it's the the leveraged leveraged buyout of RJR buyout of RJ or an Nabisco Abisco.

9:39 and And Ross Ross Johnson Johnson was was the the CEO CEO, sat sat on on the the 48th 48th floor floor of of nine nine West West, was was sweeping sweeping the the offices offices for for Bugs bugs

9:47 and and like like secretly secretly walking walking down down six six flights flights of of Stairs stairs to to the 42nd floor floor the 42nd floor,, which which was was KKR KKR. It's It's amazing

9:55 amazing. and And so so we we got got to to, you you know know, I I started started my my career career on on the the 48th 48th floor floor. that That book book was was like like one one of of my

10:01 my inspirations inspirations to to want want to to be be in in business business, wanted wanted to to be be,, want want to to be be in in banking banking.. And And so so work work for for Vince

10:09 Vince was was an an analyst analyst for for three three years years had had the the benefit benefit.. You You know know,, there's there's so so much much in in life life that's that's luck luck..

10:14 And And one one doesn't doesn't know know that that it's it's luck luck or or not not luck luck,, but but had had the the benefit benefit of of the the telecom telecom tech tech bubble bubble

10:21 bursting bursting in in 2000 2000,, which which was was a a real real bummer bummer because because I I got got my my first first bonus bonus.. I invested I invested in in great great companies

10:27 companies that that bonus bonus and and lost lost it it all all.. Petscom Petstock. com. No No,, it it was was like like Worldcom Worldcom.. How How about about Worldcom Worldcom?? That That

10:34 was was a a legitimate legitimate company company until until it it went went bankrupt bankrupt And and then then it it was was zero zero.. So So in in any any case case, though though,, that

10:40 that caused caused all all the the analysts analysts and and associates associates to to leave leave the the energy energy group group.. So So I I was was working working 247 and ended up being an

10:49 247 and ended up being an analyst analyst promote promote to to associate associate and and was was covering covering the the MLPs. By MLPs Either the way way,, I probably I probably stayed stayed

10:55 because because I I wasn't wasn't capable capable of of leaving leaving to to go go to to tech attacking and telecom telecom.. But But I I stayed stayed in in energy energy.. Cashflow Cashflow

11:01 made made sense sense to to me me and and became became an an associate associate. and and was was really really covering covering MLPs. MLPs. And And so so this this is is,, and and again again,,

11:11 I I guess guess I I should should say say,, this this is is again again, not not about about me me per per se se,, but but really really the the evolution evolution of of the the space space for

11:16 for everybody everybody who's who's kind kind of of watching watching or or listening listening. And And I I really really should should say say anything anything I I say say right right now now,,

11:22 as as you you know know,, Chuck Chuck,, isn't isn't just just Daniel Daniel hers Hers.. I had two two amazing amazing mentors mentors and and partners partners on on this this next next phase

11:30 phase,. and And that's that's Ed Ed Cohen Cohen and and Jonathan Jonathan Cohen Cohen. Ed Ed was Energy was Energy CEO CEO of of the the Year Year in in 2011 2011 by by Heart Hart Energy Energy..

11:41 Ed Ed has has a a PhD PhD from from Princeton Princeton in in the the classics classics,, a a JD JD from from Penn Penn.. He's He's a a brilliant brilliant,, brilliant brilliant person person..

11:50 And And Jonathan Jonathan is is a a brilliant brilliant,, brilliant brilliant person person as as well well.. And And they they were were my my mentors mentors,, my my partners partners,, and

11:58 and they're they're like like a a second second family family to to me me. So So anything anything I I say say is is with with them them and and with with the the thousands thousands of of people

12:05 people who've who've worked worked with with us us., who who are are dear dear friends friends today today,, from from everyone everyone who who was was out out making making sure sure our our

12:13 wells wells were were producing producing,, we're we're drilling drilling,, we're we're drilling drilling.. Let's Let's give give one one quick quick disclaimer disclaimer.. Anything Anything

12:17 good good that that happened happened at at Kane Cane was was all all me me,, anything anything bad bad were were other other people people,, just just for for the the record record.. Well, Can

12:22 can I I just just ask ask you you a a question question?? Yeah, fire what just? Just like like when when you you say say anything anything good good. What. What was was the the best best thing

12:28 thing?? I've I've just just been been super super interested interested to to know know what what was was the the best best deal deal you you did did. at Cane. Silver Silver Hill Hill.. Silver

12:33 Silver Hill Hill. Silver Hill. You know, we, so So, it it was was a scary scary deal deal too too.. Two Two things things in in there there were were really really,, really really scary scary..

12:41 One One,, so so the the original original thesis thesis is is we we went went into into,, you know, in in effect effect, right right outside outside of of Pecos Pecos,, loving loving Winkler

12:49 Winkler County County,. And and we we were going got to, we got the the shallow shallow rights rights to to the the Canyon Canyon Sands Sands,, and and we we were were going going to to do do a a

12:55 Wolf Wolfberry Berry.. Old Old school school drill drill of of article article,, commingle commingle,, I I don't don't know know,, five five to to seven seven zones zones.. What What year

13:01 year was was this this?? This This is is 2012

13:05 2012, maybe maybe?. Okay. So So we're we're gonna going to do do this this.. And And Kyle Kyle Miller Miller and and his his team team are are all all like like 30 30.. It It was was the the

13:11 first first time time I I ever ever had had a a meeting meeting where where I I was was sitting sitting in in and and I I'm like, Holy went, holy shit shit,, I'm I'm the the old old guy guy..

13:15 This This is is when what, when did did I I become become the the old old guy guy,? But but I I was was the the old old guy guy.. So So that that was was it,. And and we we drilled drilled

13:20 seven seven of of the the finest finest water water wells wells ever ever in in the the history history of of West West Agam Agamot.. We We're were spewing spewing water water everywhere everywhere..

13:26 Um, and And we we had had, we had bought bought the the shallow shallow right rights from from Clayton Clayton Williams Williams.. Clayton Clayton Williams Williams comes comes back back and and

13:35 says says,, Hey hey,, y'all y'all already already ran ran title title.. If If y'all y'all can can close close in in two two weeks weeks,, we'll we'll sell sell you you the the deep deep rights

13:40 rights.. And And that that was was the the wolf Wolf Camp camp,, uh et, et cetera cetera.. And And we we wound wound up up buying buying a 100 hundred million million dollars worth of with the

13:48 acreage acreage.. And And we we had had never never done done that that at at Caine Caine in in terms terms of of that that. And And, uh, it it was was right right at at the the point point when

13:53 when Mike Mike and and I I had had taken taken over over the the energy energy funds funds.. And And so so we we did did that that.. And And then then, um, at at some some other other, and

14:03 point so, at at some some other other point point,, you you know know,, we we., we, We we wanted wound to up grow growing in Wolf wolf Camp camp wells Wells. They that were were doing doing

14:09 really really well well. We. We went went to to sell sell,, we um, we went went to to sell sell, I, I wanna want to say say August August of of 2014 2014,, you know, price price to is just

14:17 just kind kind of of collapsing collapsing and and all all that that.. So So we we had had a a number number that that was was a a two two acts X, and and we we decided decided,, man man,,

14:23 we're we're just just drilling drilling great great wells wells.. Let's Let's not not sell sell this this, let's. Let's hold hold on on. the. collapse Claps happens happens,. and My my timing

14:28 timing may may be be off off a a little little,, but but anyway anyway,, at at some some point point, we we decided decided to to double double down down. And And what what was was the the

14:36 wildest wildest part part about about this this story story is is conchoe conchoe and and the the offsetting offsetting acreage acreage,, right right?? So So we we had had 26 26, 000, 000 wolf

14:41 Wolf Camp camp acres acres that that were were checker checker boarded boarded with with Anadarko Anadarko.. They They had had 14 14,, 000 000 acres acres,, but but it it was was concentrated

14:48 concentrated blocked blocked up up.. And And so so anyway anyway,, we we negotiated negotiated a a price price to to buy buy the the offsetting offsetting acreage acreage from from conchoe conchoe..

14:57 And And

14:59 what what was was wild wild about about it it is is they they had had drilled drilled three three well well-bores bores,. and And we we said said, don't, don't complete complete them 'em because

15:04 because we we were doing were doing different different stuff stuff than than they. they were. And And so so basically basically what what the the investor investor memo memo said said was was,,

15:11 if if we we just just replicate replicate what what we're we're doing doing on on the the Wolf wolf Camp camp there there, because because we we can can drill drill long long laterals laterals,,

15:18 'cause because it's it's blocked blocked up up, as as opposed opposed to to our our short short laterals laterals,, if if we we just just do do what what we're we're doing doing now now, it's it's

15:23 20 20 rate rate of of return return if if it's it's simple simple linear linear math math.. You You get get two X 2x the the reserves reserves for for 13 13 the the cost cost. And and you you kind

15:31 kinda of like like, going, okay okay,, that that generally generally happens happens, but but sometimes sometimes it it doesn't doesn't, but but you're you're like like,, okay okay. And And

15:36 then then you you sit sit there there and and you you go go,, we we sit sit there there and and we we said said,, if if we we can can find find one one other other,, one one others others,, no

15:44 no,, hold hold on on,, here's here's what what it it was was.. If If we we drill drill short short laterals laterals,, it's it's 20 20 rate of return return.. If If we we drill drill -.

15:49 When When you you say say short short,, what's what's that that,? 2500 2500 feet - The one section feet. Yeah, yeah,. 2500 feet - Okay, 5000 2500 feet feet -. Yeah Yeah, so if We we just

15:55 replicated replicated our our one one section section drilling drilling we we were were doing doing, 'cause because we we were were checker checkerboarded boarded with with Anadark Anadark and and we

16:00 we couldn't couldn't work work out out a a deal deal with with them them to to drill drill long long models laterals. If we just just replicated replicated that that drilling drilling on on the the

16:05 conchoe conchio acre acreage., 20 20 rate rate of of return return.. If If the the long long laterals laterals worked work,, two X 2x the the reserves reserves were were 13 times 13 times the

16:13 the cost cost because, 'cause you you obviously obviously didn't didn't have have to to drill drill this this part part again again,, 35 35 rate rate of of return return, and and you're you're

16:19 like like, Okay, okay,, and and generally generally speaking speaking,, that's that's the the way way it it works works out out but, but it it doesn't doesn't always always work work out out.

16:23 And And then then we we were were like like,, If if we we could could just just find find one one more more z - zone that that looks looks anything anything like like the the Wolf Wolf Camp Camp,,

16:29 then then it it was was a a 50 50 rate rate of of return return.. They They had had left left three three well well-bores boards there there,, two two Wolf Wolf Camps Camps, and and one one

16:35 Avalon Avalon. So So this this new new zone zone., Anyway anyway,. so So that's that's all all set set up up there there,, right right?? It It was was all all predicated predicated on on 40

16:43 40 oil oil.. We We signed signed the the PSA PSA when when oil oil was was at at 31 31 per month,. so So we we signed signed the the PSA PSA and and I I threw threw up up that that night night..

16:50 Just Just being being nervous nervous, right, right? It's - Totally - It's like like,, Man have, have you you ever ever been been out out to to West West Texas Texas?? It It sucks sucks. - I

16:55 mean, it's It's flat flat and and dusty dusty - Don't - Don't get get there there, I've spent a. I ton of time on it spent - Yeah a, ton of time out no there, it's - Yeah, no, it's like like

16:59 flat flat and and dusty dusty and and it's it's shitty shitty, and and I've I've like like,, got gotta to bet bet my my whole whole career on, you career know, this 40, 000 on acres out there.

17:04 this 40, 000 acres out there.

17:08 So So anyway anyway,, so so this this was was great great though though.. So So we we immediately immediately complete complete the the two two wolf Wolf camp Camp wells wells and and 90 90 days

17:16 days later later, we've, we've got got production production on on those those two two wolf Wolf camp Camp wells wells and and we're we're definitely definitely on on target target for for two two X

17:21 X,, the the reserves reserves - Yeah - The The third third weld well, the, the Avalon Avalon well well,, we we completed completed. it it as as well well.. 90 90 days days later later,,

17:29 it's it's made made more more oil oil than than any any other other well well in in the the field field.. Now Now, it's it's shallower shallower,, so so there's there's not not as as much much

17:35 pressure pressure, So so we we weren't weren't gonna going to get get as as big big an an EUR EUR, but, but it it was was cheaper cheaper to to drill drill.. And And so so,, I I mean mean,,

17:40 within within 90 90 to to 120 120 days days,, it it was was a a home home run run,, but but took took 40 40 oil oil and and it it was was at at 31 31.. So So anyway anyway,, all all that that

17:48 came came together together.. We We drilled drilled all all these these great great wells wells.. We We go go put put that that thing thing for for sale sale and and we we sold sold it it to to

17:53 RSP RSP for for two 25 and a half billion dollars, billion made Made the the front front page page of of the the Wall Wall Street Street Journal Journal -. Yeah Yeah,, that's that's a a home home

17:59 run run -. Yeah That's, that's a home run. That's the the best best -. Yeah Yeah, it's, absolutely - The the best best. And and I I appreciate appreciate the the throwing throwing up up because

18:05 I, my my team team, will will tell tell you you,, I I live live every every day day in in full full panic panic. - And Oh, totally - And the the panic panic is is driven driven by by just just.

18:14 - We We all all know know what what to to do do when when things things go go right right,, right right?? It's It's when when things things go go wrong wrong.. That's That's when when you you

18:18 are are in in your your money money. - I I mean mean,, it's it's yes yes,, but but I I live live in in panic panic because because I I just just feel feel this this incredible incredible sense

18:23 sense of of responsibility responsibility to to deliver deliver for for a others. Like Like, I I need need to to deliver deliver for for our our shareholders shareholders. I. I need need to to

18:29 deliver deliver for for my my partners partners.. I I need need to to deliver deliver for for everyone everyone. And And so so,, yeah yeah,, that that fear fear of of I'm I'm betting betting my

18:35 my career career,, I'm I'm betting betting our our LPs LPs,, everything everything.. But But so so maybe maybe to to go go back back on on kind kind of of Ed Ed and and John and John and our our

18:44 partnership partnership and and when when it it began began.. So So they they just just giving giving the the history history of of, because because you you really really hit hit an an interesting

18:49 interesting time time slot slot. But But let's let's go go back back kind kind of of rewind rewind the the tape tape to to 2003 2003.. In In 2003 2003,, it's it's like like a a lifetime lifetime

18:58 ago ago,, 20 20 years years ago ago.. I I was was in in banking banking. I I was was an an associate associate and and Ed Ed and and John John had had been been persuading persuading me me for

19:05 for the the previous previous two two years years to to join join them them.. They They had had a a 40 40 million million MLP MLP,. that's That's master master limited limited partnership

19:11 partnership.. The entire And and it it was was simply simply gathering gathering gas gas from from shallow shallow upper upper Devonian Devonian wells wells in in Pennsylvania Pennsylvania that that

19:19 they they were were drilling drilling at at their their EP EP business business,, which which was was private private. And. And so so it is this was this 40 40 million million MLP MLP, the the

19:25 entire entire MLP MLP. sector sector cake cake against against.. You You know know,, it's it's the the market market cap cap. If. If you you put put all all the MLPs the MLPs together together

19:30 in in 2003 2003.,

19:33 I'm I'm going going to to say say a 115 hundred and fifteen billion billion,, but but I I have have no no idea idea.. Five Five billion billion dollars dollars.. No No,, shit. together

19:40 Together. Two to thousand combined combine market market cap cap was was five five billion billion dollars dollars.. Was Was a a Boston Boston salt salt.. Exactly Exactly.. I I'm was still

19:46 still camping. camping Yeah. that Okay. Yeah. Okay.. They They weren't weren't really really trading trading,, but but exactly exactly.. So I mean, they were on the comp sheet So So I I

19:46 joined them in

19:48 mean, they were on

19:51 the comp sheet January of. '04 So I joined them in January of '04 with with this this 40 40 million million dollar MLP MLP called called Atlas Atlas Pipeline Pipeline. and And the the parent parent

19:60 company company,, the the general general partner partner,, which which was was also also an an EB EP business business., drilling drilling shallow shallow upper upper Devonian Devonian wells

20:05 wells in in southwestern southwestern Pennsylvania Pennsylvania.. And The the first first thing thing we we did did was was we we took took public public Atlas Atlas energy energy back back in in

20:12 May May of of 2004 2004.. We We raised raised,, it it was was an an incredible incredible success success.. We We raised raised 40 40 million million. dollars. It It was was a a 200 200

20:21 million million dollar market market cap cap.. And I'm I'm saying saying it it was was an an incredible incredible success success.. We We literally literally priced priced. almost almost at at

20:27 the the top top of of the the range range.. But there was, I mean You, you couldn't couldn't really really take take companies companies public public. It It was was led led by by FBR FBR,,

20:33 Friedman Friedman Billings Billings,, Ramsey Ramsey,, yeah, and and KeyBank KeyBank. We did. that in May of '04. And so we did that in May of '04. Then Then we we had had this this pipeline

20:41 pipeline business business.. And we We said said, we really we're were in in the the high high splits splits.. We're We're tiny tiny.. We're We're generating generating a a very very small

20:50 small amount amount of of cash cash flow flow., 40 40 million million dollar market market cap cap. We We were were probably probably only only generating generating like 6 6 million million of of

20:56 cash cash flow flow.. And so we We went went to to Oklahoma Oklahoma.. And there was a gathering gathering and and processing processing system system that had had been been turned turned around

21:03 around by by energy Energy spectrum Spectrum.. You You know know,, those those guys guys.. Yeah Yeah,, sure sure.. Yeah Yeah.. So So energy Energy Spectrum spectrum had had turned turned

21:08 around around this this old old Chevron Chevron,, Texaco Texaco facility facility in in Stevens Stevens County County,, Southern Southern Oklahoma Oklahoma.. And And we we paid paid 140 140

21:16 million, million, more more than than tripled tripled the the size size of of the the company company to to buy buy this this 100 100 million million cubic cubic feet feet today a day cryo cryo

21:22 facility facility that that had had gone gone from from 36 36 gas gas fired fired compressors compressors down down to to five five electric electric compressors compressors reducing reducing the the

21:28 costs costs.. So So we we bought bought it it. It. It was was being being sold sold by by Lee Legion Jacobi Kobe and and Scott Scott Rogan Rogan and and Lehman Lehman brothers Brothers,, you you

21:35 know know, the, those sky guys.. Yeah Yeah.. So So I'm I'm naming naming names names today today.. I'm I'm going going to roll to name name drop drop the the whole whole time time.. Oh Oh,,

21:42 I'm I'm going going to to name name drop drop everybody every. There so you that's go. Perfect so. for So so that that was was,, yeah yeah,, that that was was June June of of 04 04,, nine

21:47 nine months months later later.. We We, that that was was an an all all POP POP, you situation know, system system., Our our cash cash flows flows went went up up because because NGLs NGLs went

21:56 went up up.. We're We're like like,, Oh Oh, this, this is is pretty pretty good good.. Stock Stock performed performed well well.. Yeah Yeah,, we we actually actually raised raised 70 70

22:02 million million of of equity equity for for Atlas Atlas pipeline Pipeline with with Lehman Lehman, who who was was selling selling it it as as our our lead lead underwriter underwriter., But but

22:08 nine nine months months later later,, we we went went back back and and I I was was working working actually actually in in Dallas Dallas with with a a guy guy, Ray Ray Davis Davis.. Sure Sure..

22:16 Yeah Yeah. So So Ray Ray Davis Davis and and his his partner partner,, Kelsey Kelsey Warren Warren, had had this this small small pipeline pipeline company company called called Energy Energy

22:22 Transfer Transfer,. Right right?. And And they they had had bought bought these these assets assets from from a Aquila Quilla, and and they they needed needed to to sell sell off off to to pay

22:30 pay down down debt debt or or for for whatever whatever purpose purpose. Right. I. I don't don't know know these these gathering gathering and and processing processing assets assets.. So So we

22:34 we bought bought for for 190 190 million million this call it

22:39 this under, well, call call it it under, well, call it 230 230 million million a a day day cryo cryo facility facility in in Western Western Oklahoma Oklahoma into into the the panhandle panhandle

22:46 of of Texas Texas that that was was the the granite granite wash wash.. So So that that was good was. That was good 190. That was 190 million million.. Okay Okay. So. So now now we're we're

22:52 getting getting going going. Six six months months later later. You You know know who who was was there there at at Energy Energy Transfer Transfer while while you you were were doing doing that

22:58 that deal deal?? Tell Tell me me. Call Former Dallas us Cowboys Cowboys safeties., Charlie Charlie Waters Waters and and Cliff Cliff Harris Harris.. Yes Yes, so. I So I got got this this back

23:04 back when when I I was was at at Stevens Stevens,. I I left left Stevens Stevens and and

23:08 well what was, it was it? March March of of '01 '01 to to go go join join Cane Cane.. So So let's let's call call it it late late nineties '90s.. We We were were meeting meeting with with Kelsey

23:14 Kelsey and and Ray Ray and and they they had had Cliff Cliff Harris Harris and and Charlie Charlie Waters Waters in in the the meetings meetings. It was. Pretty pretty freaking freaking cool cool..

23:19 It's It's so so I I knew knew - By By the the way way,, Stevens Stevens participated participated in in the the GP buyout of Energy GP buyout of Transfer made a fortune. Energy Transfer Made of

23:26 Fortune. I I never never got got my my share share,, but but in in fairness fairness,, I I did did leave leave. So So that that wasn't wasn't it. it. Well Well,, I I mean mean,, they're

23:31 they're a a whole whole super super interesting interesting story story.. So I So I mean mean, really, really unbelievable unbelievable.. So So Ray Ray Davis Davis,, literally literally, who

23:37 who -, you know, he's he's a a co-owner co-owner of of the the Dallas Dallas baseball baseball team team. You'll. The Rangers. You'll have have to to forget forget, I'm I'm not not a a sports

23:44 sports guy guy.. I'm I'm an an energy energy guy guy.. This This is is what what I I do do is is energy energy.. But But Ray Ray literally literally negotiated negotiated the the confidentiality

23:50 confidentiality agreement agreement with with me me.. He He was was like like -, was was deep deep in in it it. And. And it it was was a a small small company company. who He went went to to

23:55 this this like really really small small kind of suburban suburban office office that that was was in in downtown downtown Dallas Dallas. It. It was was like like, right right there there, right

24:02 there off off McKinney McKinney.. Yeah, it was Yeah, it was the the old old house house. Yeah. Yeah,. because we, At at Stevens Stevens,, we we were were over over in in the the crescent

24:07 crescent and and we we walked walked to to it it.. Yeah Yeah.. Yeah Yeah., You you walked walked by by the the

24:13 convenience convenience store store on on the the corner corner that that had had the the barbecue barbecue place place in in it it.. Yeah I. I had had never never seen seen anything anything like

24:18 like it it.. It It was was like like super super warm warm and and inviting inviting and and wonderful wonderful.. And And there there was was this this young young guy guy,, David David

24:23 Brantley Brantley who, who is was there there.. I I don't don't know know if if you you know know. I. never met David He And he just just,, he he went went with with, with Ray Ray after after

24:29 Ray Ray left left on on that that,, uh, and and all all of of that that interesting interesting stuff stuff.. But But so so essentially essentially though though,, you you know know,, they

24:35 they were were great great.. Uh, They'll they'll factor factor that that his his energy energy transfer transfer into into a a story story later later on on,, which which is is, uh, into in two,

24:42 so so six six months months later later,, it's it's now now call called it late late summer summer, oh '06 six,, or or excuse excuse me me,, late late summer summer, oh '05 five,, we we

24:49 bought bought from from OG and OG E a FERC. and E, a FERC regulated regulated pipeline pipeline at at Atlas Atlas Pipeline pipeline from from Eastern Eastern Oklahoma Oklahoma through through

24:55 Arkansas Arkansas, And 75 75 of of it it., 25 25 was was owned owned by by this this utility utility that that nobody nobody had had ever ever heard heard of of called called Southwestern

25:02 southwestern energy energy.. Right Right.. And And they they claimed claimed Lehman Lehman was was also also selling selling this this one one.. And And these these guys guys claimed claimed to

25:09 to have have a a thing thing called called shale shale.. And And, you you know know, we're, we're skeptical skeptical people people.. So So we we didn't didn't pay pay for for the the shale

25:14 shale,, but but we we wanted wanted the the fixed fixed fee fee income income for for our our M M for for MLP the the MLP.. But But literally literally within within weeks weeks the,, the

25:21 volumes volumes began began to to rise rise. It. It was was moving moving. It's a 300 million million a a day day FERC FERC regulated regulated pipeline pipeline. it It was was moving moving a

25:26 hundred percent 160 160 million million a a day day. and And it it was was the the essentially essentially only only takeaway takeaway out out of of Arkansas Arkansas. And and so so volumes volumes

25:32 began began to to rise rise. So So Chuck Chuck, what what did did we we do do?? We We said said, well well, we we also also have have an an EMP EMB business business. So So we we went went to

25:38 to our our geologists geologists in in Pittsburgh Pittsburgh and and said said, hey Hey, do do we we have have any any shale shale? And and They they said said, well well, we we have have this

25:45 this thing thing called called the the Marcellus Marcellus shale shale., but But it it probably probably won't won't work work. now Now, They they only only said said that that they they were were

25:52 extremely extremely excited excited because because they knew they knew we we were were skeptical skeptical. and And we we said said well, well how, how much much Do do we we have have? and we had

25:57 about 86, 000 acres in Southwestern 86, Pennsylvania, 000 acres in southwestern Pennsylvania. And And we we said said, and and I'm I'm sitting sitting here here in in Houston Houston, So so this

26:04 this is is a a dangerous dangerous thing thing,. but But we we said said we we better better put put aside aside 50 50 million million and dollars and lease lease up up more more As as quickly

26:11 quickly as as possible possible before before these these animals animals from from Texas Texas here here about about income income in in here here. now Now we We were were so so naive naive that

26:18 that it it really really was was the the animals animals from from Oklahoma Oklahoma that that would would have have come come in in, Aubrey Aubrey - Right - And And leased least it it, but but so

26:25 so essentially essentially we we put put aside aside 50 50 million million, hired and hired 63 63 landmen landmen.. And And then then - What what year year is is this this? - 2005 2005. - So So

26:33 when when did did, when did range range sell sell Ohio Ohio -? Do Do you you remember remember that that -? Mm-hmm - Yeah, Yeah, that that was was - 'Cause leader. 'Cause, 'cause,, yeah yeah,,

26:41 okay okay -. I bet Keep - Keep going going, 'cause 'cause that that,, 'cause 'cause my, my my show shale story story about about,, well well, it, it was was later later, because because

26:47 anyway anyway,, keep keep going going -. Yeah Yeah,. yeah Yeah.. Well Well,, we'll 'cause get into the John game - 'Cause John Walker Walker,, yeah yeah,, John John Walker Walker bought

26:53 bought that that at Intervest - I love it at - Turned it into Intervest his MLP. I love it. Turned it into his MLP. So So John John,, can can I I tell tell you you,, I'll I'll just just, just

26:58 just diverge diverge for for a a second second.. So So John John Walker Walker is is the the greatest greatest., I I mean mean,, he he is is the the sweetest sweetest person person in in the the

27:05 world world.. So So we we were were,, I I say say,, we we,, Jonathan Jonathan,, Cohen Cohen and and I I, we're were down down at at the the,, at Traubers at Traubers City city,, yeah

27:12 yeah.. The The Cabo thing. Cabo Cabo. Yeah thing, yeah.. Years Years ago ago,, and and the the most most important important thing thing at at the the Cabo Cabo thing thing is is that that

27:21 your your significant significant other other doesn't doesn't say say anything anything to to embarrass embarrass you you. Right Right.. That's That's the the whole whole goal goal. Because

27:28 because,, you you know know, we, we all all are are together together.. We We work work people people.. We We know know what what to to say say, what, what not not to to say say.. All All

27:32 right right.. And And I I mean mean,, I I had had one one person person we we were were looking looking at at doing doing a a deal deal. and And the the CFO CFO literally literally day day one

27:38 one,, we're we're looking looking at at buying buying this this company company,, pretty pretty large large company company.. And And we're we're in in line line to to get get food food at at

27:44 the the buffet buffet.. And And I'm I'm like like,, oh oh,, so so and and so so do do you you play play much much golf golf?? He's He's like like, no, no,, we're we're way way too too busy

27:49 busy.. And his wife says, what What are are you you talking talking about about?? You You play play five five days days a a week week minimum minimum.. I I can can never never find find you you..

27:55 You're You're always always playing playing golf golf - That's That's awesome awesome -. So So in in this this situation situation with with John John Walker Walker,, we're we're in in a a van van.,

28:00 My my wife's wife's there there.. And And and we we start start talking talking, his his wife wife had had gone gone to to the the organic organic farm farm.. Right. And And I I said said,,

28:08 well well,, we we have have a a bit bit of of an an organic organic farm farm at at our our house house in in New New Jersey Jersey.. You know, And and my my wife's wife's like like,, no no,,

28:14 we we don't don't,. that's That's ridiculous ridiculous.. I'm I'm like like,, no no,, with with the the tomatoes tomatoes., I I mean mean,, it it was was a a little little garden garden we

28:20 we had had. She's She's like like,, you you didn't didn't even even plant plant that that.. That That was was the the kids kids with with the the babysitter babysitter. What What, you're is so

28:25 so embarrassing embarrassing?. Yeah Yeah,, but but John's John's just just - So so here's here's my my John John Walker Walker story story.. So So I I throw throw, I I think think we've we've

28:31 done done it it 15 15 times times now now,, but but I I throw throw a a roast roast each each year year, charity charity roast rose -. I've I've seen seen that that -. Yeah Yeah., For for YDC

28:38 YDC, the the youth development development center center that that I'm I'm on on the the board board of of, running running after after school school literacy literacy program program, I mean and,

28:43 he's he's since it's fifth fifth ward ward -. Amazing Amazing -. So So the the very very first first year year we we do do this this,, I'll I'll just just say say it it was was a a shit shit show

28:49 show Because because nobody nobody understood understood what what a a rose. roast was I I mean mean,, I I grew grew up up watching watching the the Dean Dean Martin Martin Rose Rose and the Comedy

28:54 and the Comedy Central Central Rose Rose.. So So I I knew knew what what a a roast rose was was.. Everybody Everybody else else kind kind of of thought thought it it was was an an honorary

28:57 honorary type type dinner dinner.. And And so so,, so so anyway anyway,, John's John's one one of of the the roasters roasters.. I'm I'm one one of of the the roasters roasters because because

29:04 it's it's Mike Mike Glenn Glenn.. Sorry Sorry,, John John Walker Walker was was roasting roasting. Was was roasting roasting.. That's That's amazing amazing.. I I can't can't imagine imagine..

29:10 He He became became the the man man of of the the hour hour later later,, but but that's that's a a whole whole mother's mother's story story.. So He's Mike Mike Lynn Lynn.. So So Mike Mike

29:15 Lynn's Lynn's the the man man of of the the hour hour.. So So John John gets gets up up there there, kind kind of of makes makes fun fun of of him him.. I I get get up up there there and and part

29:19 part of of a a roast roast is is you you make make fun fun of of the the other other roasters roasters as as well well as as the a man man of of the the hour hour.. And And so so,, you you know

29:24 know,, John John was was,, I I believe believe 40 40. when when he he married married Lisa Lisa and and she she was was 20 20,, right right?? UT UT cheerleader cheerleader.. So So anyway

29:30 anyway,, I'm I'm up up there there and and I'm I'm like like,, I'm like like,, John John,, when when she she registers registers at at Toys Toys R R Us Us,, she's she's just just too too

29:38 young young., You you can't can't get get married married.. You You know know,, I I mean mean,, I'm I'm just just having having a a rose rose.. And And then then I I say say,, you you know

29:42 know,, when when her her curfews curfew's at at 10 10 pm pm,, that that she's she's too too young young.. So So Lisa Lisa gets gets up up and and leaves leaves. You You know know,, anyway

29:49 anyway,, about about a a third third of of the the room room got got up. up and left left that that night night. Anyway anyway, it it was was a a bit bit of of a a mess mess, but but we we still

29:53 still have have a a rose roast today today and and it it works works very very well well I I call called John John the the next next morning morning and and I'm I'm like like, John John, I I'm am so

29:58 so sorry sorry. I I saw saw Lisa Lisa leaving leaving. I I feel feel so so bad bad about about that that. I I am am apologetic apologetic. I I would would love love to to call call Lisa Lisa and

30:08 and apologize apologize. John John doesn't doesn't miss miss a a beat beat. He he goes goes, Chuck Chuck, my my favorite favorite charity charity is is the the Boy Boy Scouts Scouts of of America

30:15 America, the the Houston Houston Council Council. and And I I went went,

30:19 oh oh, um is is there there a a suggested suggested donation donation to to the the Boy Boy Scouts Scouts of of America America. that that might might be be appropriate appropriate at at this this

30:28 time time. John John spit spit out out a a number number. I I wrote wrote a a check check, mailed mailed it it in in. he's He's never never mentioned mentioned it it again again. and And we've

30:33 we've been been best best friends friends. amazing Amazing. that didn't That's amazing. even yeah Yeah. just Just Chuck Chuck, my my favorite favorite charity charity didn't didn't acknowledge

30:38 acknowledge it it, didn't didn't accept accept the the apology apology, didn't didn't say say anything anything mean mean. just Just my my favorite favorite charity charity. I I was was like like,

30:44 there there we we get go. what What a a sweet sweet. yeah Yeah what. What a a great great guy guy. and And what what I I mean mean, it it really really speaks speaks to to what what I I love love

30:48 so so much much about about our our, what what our our, our our industry industry,, which which is is some some of of the the most most philanthropic philanthropic and and giving giving people

30:55 people.. It's It's literally literally,, instead instead of of it it being being about about John John,, it's it's about about how how can can we we help help other other people people??

31:01 Exactly Exactly what what you you started started. - None None of of it it, none. None of of it it.. None None of of the the charities charities really really went went broke broke, even even

31:05 when when oil oil was minus was minus 37 37 -. Yeah Yeah. - No No,, it's it's incredible incredible -. So So I I diverted diverted you you,. so So - Yeah, no we, were so So we we had had this

31:12 this,, you yeah know,, we we had had 86 86,, 000 000 acres acres before before

31:17 you you animals animals from from Texas Texas got got wind wind of of it it. It's It's 2005 2005,. We we accumulated accumulated an an incremental incremental 260 260, 000, 000 acres acres.. So

31:26 we So had 340 we had 340, 000, 000 acres acres.. And And then then for for those those who who are are less less familiar familiar with with Atlas Atlas and and Atlas Atlas Energy energy,, we we

31:34 then then drilled drilled more more wells wells in in the the Marcella Marcella shale shale than any company between than 2005 and any 2010 company between 2005 - and 2010 - Now Now were were you you

31:41 all all drilling drilling horizontals horizontals and and fracking fracking or or was was it it actually actually some some vertical vertical?? There There was was some some vertical vertical work

31:46 work in in the the Marcellas Marcellas for for a a while while.. I I thought you had a small amount - think it was small amount. So So one one,,

31:54 we we drilled drilled the the first first dry dry gas gas horizontal horizontal shale shale well well in in the the Marcellas Marcellus.. We We were were eight eight,, it it took took us us nine

32:02 nine months months,, cost cost us us 12 12 million million.. We only We only put put away away,, well well,, we we only only got got 1 1500, 500 feet feet horizontally horizontally.. We We

32:12 only only put put away away 500 500 feet feet of of casing casing and and we we shotgunned shotgunned it it.. It It was was disaster zaster.. But But I'll I'll tell tell you you,, 10 10 years

32:21 years later later, when when we we sold sold the the company company,, it it was was still still producing producing like like 500 500 mcf a MCF a day day.. And it didn't, I I mean mean,, it

32:27 it produced produced. And as soon as as soon as it it produced produced,. We're like, we're we've like, we've got got something something here here.. This This is is interesting interesting..

32:32 So So we we drilled drilled,, we we drilled drilled a a lot lot of of vertical vertical wells wells.. We We hired hired a a guy guy,, Tommy Tommy Thompson Thompson, from from Oxy Oxy to to come

32:38 come in in and and drill drill, because because we we were were traditionally traditionally vertical vertical,, shallow shallow, and, operative upper, owning Devonian drillers drillers.. We We

32:44 needed needed an an actual actual,, highly highly capable capable team team.. So So Tommy Tommy came came in in from from Oxy Oxy.. He He was was what what we we called called,, or what or

32:51 what Ed Ed called called, the the well well whisper whisper.. I I have have no no idea idea what what the the hell hell that that means means - Right Right. - But In in any any case case,, Tommy

32:58 Tommy did did not not have have to to shock shock on on any any wells wells. Or or,, you yeah know, and, and he he got got off off all all of of the the wells wells under under budget budget on

33:05 on schedule schedule.. He He was was amazing amazing.. And And we we were were off off and and running running.. And And then then

33:11 we we followed followed the the great great Aubrey Aubrey McClendon McClendon,, which which I'll I'll come come back back to to Aubrey Aubrey, and and hired hired Ralph Ralph Eads Eads - - Sure

33:18 Sure - - What What another other name name drop dropped for for you you - - There There you you go go - - We We hired hired Ralph Ralph and and Ajay Ajay to to lead lead a a joint joint venture

33:25 venture for for us us.. And And this this was was 2009 2009.. So, and So it, and it was was interesting interesting.. We We,, so so we we ended ended up up flying flying around around the

33:34 the world world in early in 2010 early 2010,, met met with with the the 18 18 largest largest energy energy companies companies in in the the world world in in this this joint joint venture venture

33:41 process process.. And And Ralph Ralph,, you you know know Ralph Ralph well well - - It's a, So, speaking speaking of of the the roast roast., I think there's there's been been enough enough

33:48 time time that that it has has passed passed that that we we can can share share this this story story - - Great Great - - Ralph Ralph was was supposed supposed to to be be a a roaster roaster at at

33:54 the the first first roast roast of of Mike Mike Lin Lynn., And and George George San Sam Felipe Philippo got up got up there there and and in in fairness fairness,, like like if if everybody

34:05 everybody would would have have known known it it was was Rose Rose that that probably probably would would have have been been okay okay.. And And had had George George sat sat down down after

34:09 after seven seven minutes minutes,, probably probably would would have have been been okay okay.. He He went went on on for for 45 45 minutes minutes.. Totally Totally offended offended Ralph

34:14 Ralph.. Ralph Ralph got got up up and and took took all all the the Jeffries Jeffries people people in in the the left left - - No No - - Yes Yes., Ralph Ralph and and I I are are good good

34:19 friends friends to to this this day day.. You You know know,, we've we've patched patched everything everything up up,. but Yeah yeah, that, that was was kind kind of of a a mess mess - - Yeah

34:23 Yeah,, that's that's a a disaster disaster. - I I mean, it sounds - mean, it sounds - I'm a big Ralph Ralph fan fan.. I I mean mean,, as as impressive impressive a a banker banker as as there

34:29 there is is out out there there. - Yeah Yeah,, he's he's an an animal animal -. Oh, he's So great - And so he he,, excuse excuse me me,, so so he he

34:36 led led our our joint joint venture venture.. We We flew flew around around the the world world and we and we met met with with the the 18 18 largest largest energy energy companies companies. And.

34:44 We, and Ralph Ralph had had this this approach approach where he's like, we're we're gonna send going a term to sheet send out, which is a term sheet out, which is the the terms terms we're we're

34:51 willing willing to to do do a a deal deal,, including including the the price price.. Now Now, I've I've never never heard heard of of such such a a thing thing.. And And he he put put forward

34:57 forward the the highest highest price price by by a a multiple multiple of of two two that that anybody anybody had had ever ever paid paid for for acreage acreage in in the the Marcellus Marcellus

35:06 saw probably you 'cause time more one this Ralph on brag Let's -. Let's brag on on doing it. So Ralph Ralph would one do that. more time, because you probably saw this doing it. So Ralph would do

35:13 that. The The other other thing thing he he was was the the best best at at is is convincing convincing somebody somebody why why they they can could pay pay them that -. Yeah Yeah -, He he did did

35:19 the the best best job job of of laying laying out out the the modeling modeling work work.. Here's Here's how how Wall Wall Street's Street's gonna going to look look at at this this.. This This

35:24 is is why why, this this is is why why we when knew. you pay pay this this,, your your stock stock price price is is gonna going to double double -. Yeah Yeah,, he he was was amazing amazing -.

35:30 Yeah Yeah,, he he was was.. I I mean mean,, so so,, I I mean mean,, we we met met with with the the 18 18 large largest energy energy companies companies.. This This is is early early 2010

35:35 2010.. We We narrowed narrowed it it down down to to two two majors majors,, BP, Chevron, and BP, Chevron, and Mukesh Ambani. Mukesh Ambani, who who controls controls reliance reliance

35:47 industries industries. At. At the the time time,, Mukesh Mukesh was was the the fourth fourth wealthiest wealthiest man man in in the the world world.. Today Today,, I I think think he's he's

35:52 number number eight eight in in the the world world as as far far as as wealth wealth. So So amazing amazing.. BP BP,, actually actually,, and and this this is is what what really really

35:59 changed changed our our entire entire thinking thinking,, took took us us on on a a tour tour here here in in Houston Houston,, actually actually pretty pretty close close to to where where we we

36:03 are are of of their their facility facility.. And And they they said said,, listen Listen,, anybody anybody can can pay pay you you what what you're you're asking asking?? What What we we can

36:09 can offer offer you you is is the the hive hive in in technology technology. And And they they took took us us on on a a tour tour with with no no bankers bankers, just just us us, of of their

36:18 their facilities facilities. And And honestly honestly,, Chuck Chuck,, it it blew blew at at least least me me. And and I I would would say say us us away away because because what what they

36:25 they were were able to to do do and and see see was was so so far far ahead ahead.. I I mean mean,, it it felt felt like like it it was was like like a a light light.. I I mean mean,, it it

36:33 was was 10 10 years years ahead ahead of of anything anything we we would would ever ever be be capable capable of of doing doing.. And And we we said said,, Holy holy shit shit.. This is a Like,

36:40 this is a big big person's person's game game. And and I'm I'm not not sure sure where we're the the right right people. people. But But in in any any case case,, we we didn't didn't say say that

36:46 that in in our our joint joint venture venture,. we We did did the the deal deal with with them cash Mckesh.. They They paid paid 14 14,, 100 100 per per acre acre,, a a record record, 17 17

36:54 billion billion to to partner with us. partner with us. Two Two months months later later,, probably probably orchestrated orchestrated by by Ralph Ralph,, the the runner runner up up,,

37:02 Chevron Chevron came came back back to to us us.. I I guess guess I I should should also also say say,, unfortunately unfortunately,, literally literally a a month month later later,, the the

37:10 Mcundo Mcondo well well happened happened with BP. So with BP So we we were were very very fortunate fortunate we we didn't didn't do the do the JV JV with with BP BP.. But But two two months

37:16 months later later,, Chevron Chevron came came back back to to us us after after we we did did the the JV JV with with them cash Mckesh.. And And they they said said,, Hey hey,, we we like

37:22 like, we the - Marcellus like the, this was our our first first kind of look look into into the the shale shale., we We love love your your JV JV terms terms,, which which Ralph Ralph had had

37:32 helped helped us us structure structure the the most most incredible incredible terms terms.. How How about about we we buy buy your your company company?? And And we we were were the the best

37:38 best trading trading mid-cappy mid-cappy and P company company in in the the space space, and and they they offered offered us us a a 50 50 premium. And we said to ourselves, Well, there's about a

37:44 thousand things we can identify that can premium go wrong, and there's probably 10 times that, but we can only identify a thousand things. But most of all, gas is at 6 in. And we said to

37:46 ourselves, hmm, well, there's about a thousand things we can identify that can go wrong. And there's probably 10 times that, but we can only identify a thousand things. But most of all, gas is

37:59 at 6 an MCF. MCF. Exxon Exxon just just bought bought XTO XTO,, Shell Shell just just bought bought East East Resources Resources,, Terry Terry Pragoula Pagoola's is company company, owner

38:07 owner of of the the bills bills,, current current owner owner of of the the bills bills. And And we're we're probably probably not not even even that that good good at at finding finding natural

38:13 natural gas gas.. And And so so if if those those guys guys are are coming coming in in,, we we probably probably should should sell sell our our company company because because gas gas might

38:19 might go go from from 6 six to to a a much much lower lower price price.. And And so so we we sold sold the the company company,, we we signed signed the the deal deal in in late late 2010, 43

38:26 billion. 2010, 43 billion from from the the 200 200 million million IPO IPO,. it It was was a a 931 931 return return.. It It was was tremendously tremendously exciting exciting.. And And that

38:37 that was was just just great great and. And the the team team loved loved it it.. And And that was that that was was the the Marcellus Marcellus situation situation,. but But unfortunately

38:43 unfortunately. for them them., they They didn't didn't want want, that that is is for for Chevron Chevron,. Chevron Chevron didn't didn't want want two two pieces pieces.. They They didn't

38:50 didn't want want the the pipeline pipeline company company,, which which I'm I didn't didn't forget forget about about. We We had had this this publicly publicly traded traded MLP MLP that that had

38:55 had been been out out there there.. And And they they didn't didn't want want the the shallow shallow upper upper Devonian Devonian wells wells that that were were HP HP being being holding holding

39:03 my my production production,, all all of of them them are are sell cellists us.. So So,, and and this this is is where where I I geek geek out out.. I I love love the the structuring

39:09 structuring and and how how to to come come up up with with solutions solutions.. So So what what we we did did is with with that that transaction transaction with with the the help help of of

39:14 Walktail Walk Tell Lipton Lipton and and Skadden Scadden Arps Arps was was we we structured structured a a deal deal where where we we spun spun off off the the general general partner partner that

39:21 that is is a a shareholder shareholder of that Atlas was Energy energy got got cash cash from from Chevron Chevron plus plus. a share share of of the the general general partner partner of of the the

39:29 pipeline pipeline company company,, which which we we had had been been expanding expanding in in Oklahoma Oklahoma and and then then into into Texas Texas over over that that over over 2006 to 2010

39:36 2006. to 2010. And then And then we we took took the the shallow shallow upper upper devonian Devonian wells wells,, which which they they didn't didn't want want,. and And we we actually

39:43 actually put it it into into the the general general part partner as as well well.. I'll I'll come come back back to to that that because because this this comes comes back back to to when when you

39:48 you and and I I last last saw saw each each other other 10 10 years years ago ago. But But so so we we sell sell the the company company and and Chevron Chevron closes closes in in February February

39:56 2011. 2011.

39:59 We We literally literally celebrate celebrate by by going going for for the the first first time time to to the the city city event event in in Cabo Cabo.. My My wife wife was was not not at at that

40:06 that event event.. This This was was literally literally coincided coincided.. It It was was one one of of the the great great celebrations celebrations. You You know, know, Eric Eric Shire

40:14 Shire.. You You don't don't know know Shire Shire.. He He runs runs magnetars magnetars. He runs magnetars energy group. No, he was. He the runs magnetars energy group. No, he was the owner

40:21 of the theater dear friend friend. He's. He's been been a a partner partner of of ours ours in in various various forms forms and since so. '07. And

40:29 he's like, you guys just look incredibly serene. And we seven. And I mean, he's like, you guys just look incredibly were happy serene at. And we were that point happy at that 42 42 billion

40:35 billion reasons reasons to to be be serene. Yeah. serene. Yeah Well. Well,, for for our our shareholders shareholders,. Yes. most Most importantly importantly, but. But for for,, I I mean

40:41 mean,, the the reality reality is is that that was was 2011 2011.. It It literally literally was was 12 12, 11 11 years years from from that that point point to to the the next next point point

40:48 of of serenity serenity.. But But in in any any case case,, we we then then have have this this pipeline pipeline company company to to Oklahoma Oklahoma,, Texas Texas,, no no leverage

40:55 leverage.. And And we we said said,, we we see see the the growth growth that's that's coming coming.. Let's Let's organically organically build build on on what what we're we're doing doing..

41:00 And And I'm I'm leaving leaving out out a a little little bit bit of of tidbits tidbits. in In '07 07,. We we happen happened to buy a to buy a 18 18 billion billion asset asset from from Al Al

41:07 Walker Walker at at Anna Anadarko Darko in in Oklahoma Oklahoma and in Texas. And that and in Texas. And that was was extremely extremely dramatic dramatic We. We could could spend spend hours

41:14 hours on on that that deal deal.. That That was was our our, your your friends friends with with Jameson Jameson -. Yeah Yeah, - yeah Yeah, - not well, Not not great great. friends - So That

41:20 that was was a a Michael Michael James Jameson. special I'm so - I'm so pissed 'cause he. He busted busted me me out out of of the the world world, all all-man's in that Spoker poker tournament

41:24 tournament,, I I think think like like nine nine years years ago ago. - Really - It's still a hold So it's still a hold of of Grudge Grudge,, but but it's it's okay okay - - Can Can I I tell tell

41:29 you you,, he's he's a a real real poker poker player player. - Those No are - No,, he's he's,, yeah yeah,, he's he's -, Yeah yeah - - Yeah Yeah -, Yeah, he's he's good good - - I started a

41:35 I poker event for our community up in New Jersey, like 11 years ago. It's been amazing It's like anything outside of started a poker event for our community up in New Jersey, like 11 years ago,

41:41 it's been amazing. It's like anything outside of Texas Texas is is like like small small.. It It really really is is.. So So it's it's like like a a miniature miniature version version of of what

41:48 what you you guys guys do do here here.. But But Jamesons Jameson's come come to to it it,, which which was was amazing amazing.. Oh Oh yeah yeah,. and And like like we've we've had had

41:54 incredible incredible corporate corporate sponsorships sponsorships from from Saidy Citi to to Wells Wells Fargo Fargo to to Sherman Sherman and and Sterling Sterling,, et et cetera cetera -. I I

42:00 made made the the final final table table that here year.. So So I I didn't, I went went out out at at number number nine nine.. So So I I didn't didn't feel - But too he - But took he took you

42:04 you out out -. He He took took me me out out. - Well, so So my my deal deal is is I've I've never never played played that that much much poker poker. And and I'm Carl Carl Bernsicki Bernsicki,.

42:12 I Yeah, of course I mean mean,, Carl's Carl's the the best best poker poker player player in in the the industry industry.. He's He's won won the the World World Women's Women's Poker Poker

42:18 Tournament Tournament,, I I think think three three or or four four times times.. Great Great story story,, by by the the way way.. So So Carl Carl wins wins it it one one year year. and And

42:23 he's he's pounded pounded red red bulls bulls in in vodka vodka. So So he he is is just just. ripped Ripped. Anyway anyway,, he he wins wins it it.. Well, there's There's always always the the

42:30 big big dinner dinner afterwards afterwards.. I'm I'm standing standing in in front front of of the the restaurant restaurant.. Carl Carl comes comes walking walking up up and because goes, Chuck

42:35 Chuck, I I won won! and And he he hugs hugs me me, right right? And and he he falls falls asleep asleep.. No No., so So I'm I'm sitting sitting there there holding holding him him. and And

42:41 people people keep keep walking walking in in for for dinner dinner And. they're like going going, what's what's going going on on?? I'm I'm like like,, he's it's asleep asleep. You You know

42:46 know, Carl's Carl's a one one-one of my dearest dear his friend friends. So. I'm I'm just just holding holding him him for for about about 20 20 minutes minutes, 25 25 minutes minutes. He's He's

42:51 asleep asleep.. He He wakes wakes up up, looks looks at at me me. Oh Oh,, it's it's amazing amazing.. But But anyway anyway,, so so I'm I'm, I'm I'm going going out out to to the the poker

42:58 poker tournament tournament with with Carl Carl.. I I go go, call Carl., What's what's the the problem problem?? You You've see seen me me play play.. I I know know math math.. I I know

43:02 know all all this this.. I I get get busted busted out out early early. He He goes goes, Chuck Chuck, you you pay pay for for too too many many flops flops. He He goes goes, I I don't don't

43:08 want want you you to to play play a a hand hand unless unless you're you're willing willing to to raise raise it good good enough enough to to Play play good good enough enough to to raise raise. so

43:15 So I I said said,, okay okay,, I'm I'm gonna gonna do do that that. So So I I played played, you you know know,, it's it's a a one one-day day poker poker tournament tournament.. I I played

43:21 played 14 14 hands hands. I I won won 12 12 of of them them. and And I I made made the the final final table table, but. But I I literally literally just just sat that there there and folded

43:27 folded the the whole whole time time up up.. What willing Willing to to raise raise?. No No.. Okay Okay.. That's That's it it.. So So that's that's the the that's that's the the key key

43:32 playing playing good good poker poker is is playing playing boring boring poker poker.. It's It's just just patience patience.. Yeah Yeah,, it's patience. And you have the ability to be like

43:37 disciplined. Yeah, I patience did that one day. Yeah. Because I don't see. And you you have the ability to be like this. I did that one day. Yeah.

43:42 'Cause I don't as see you as the the type type who who could could just just sit sit there there and and like like,, wait wait it it out out. - Yeah Yeah,, I I did did that that one one day day..

43:49 Just Just, so so I I can can tell tell everybody everybody I I made made the the final final table table one one year year.. I'll I'll get get,, I'm I'm gonna going to play play again again this

43:54 this year year in. And it. I'm I'm sure sure I'll I'll get get busted busted out out in in 20 20 minutes minutes.. I'll He'll be be out out by by the the pool pool, getting getting the the

43:58 champagne champagne bath bath -. Yeah. That's That's, I I have have to to tell tell you you,, isn't isn't that that more more fun fun? - It's It's a a little lot more more fun. - Yeah Yeah.,

44:03 What? I I don't don't get get poker poker.. I I really really don't don't. - So So this this year year, actually actually at at the the world World, oh Omen's, man's poker Poker term tournament,,

44:08 they're they're going gonna to set set up up the the podcasting podcasting booth booth.. So So as as you you get get busted busted out out,, they're they're going gonna to want want you you to to

44:12 come come by by and and spend spend two two minutes minutes on on the the podcast podcast. - Do Do you you know know when when it it is is?? I I may may actually actually go go this this. It's way

44:16 - It's it's late late April April. And if you need. And an if you need an invite invite,, I I can can get get you you with with her Kurt, Hartman Hartman to to get get you you an an invite invite.

44:23 - Perfect Perfect.. Usually Usually, I I'm mean, I used maybe to be - It maybe may be sold out, so let's speed be timely timely on on that that -. Yeah Yeah,. I I used used to to get get the

44:28 the invite invite when when I I was was running running public public companies companies., but But now now that that I'm I'm at at White Whitehawk, Hawk I, I was was dropped dropped,, I I guess

44:34 guess -. Yeah Yeah. It's - It's very very upsetting upsetting -. It's It's kind of kind of like like my my nape nape party party invites invite. I'll let Dave Dave Baggett Baggett at at Opportunes

44:40 opportune still still invites invites me me and in a Kirkland current. to still still invite invites you you.. But But outside outside of of that that,, I I get get, I I don't don't get get the

44:45 the invites invites.. Well Well,, I I saw saw a a picture picture of of Kirkland Kirkland and and someone's someone's like like, this this is is amazing amazing.. They They had had like like

44:51 the the ice ice, was that was was a a Kirkland Kirkland that that had had the the ice ice like like bar bar.? Probably Probably.. Yeah Yeah.. And Well well,, an an opportune opportune does

44:57 does that that too too.. So So yeah yeah,, it it could could have have been been either either one one of of them them.. How How was was Nate Nate?? I I don't don't, I I have have a a long

45:01 long. Supposedly, certainly only 7 7,, 000 000 people people were are inside inside., you You know, know, and and I I mean mean,, Pete Pete Knap Knap was was what what, 20 20?? Yeah Yeah..

45:07 Yeah Yeah.. So So. But But I I mean mean,, so so I I have have a a long long standing standing no no nape Nate policy policy.. Like Like I I will will not not go go. and And that that sounds

45:14 sounds obnoxious obnoxious.. And And yes yes,, there's there's part part of of me me that that is is super super obnoxious obnoxious.. But But it it actually actually stems stems from from like

45:21 like our our team team would would go go and and every every time time they they would would come come back back, they, they had the the world's world's greatest greatest deal deal that that had had

45:28 been been presented presented at at Nate NAEP -. Right Right -. And And so so I'm I'm just just like like,, I I don't don't think think that's that's the the world's world's greatest greatest deal

45:34 deal.. So So I I come come the the week week after after NAEP Nate to to be be able able to to come come and and sit sit with with you you and and sit sit with with my my other other friends friends,,

45:39 you know, and and talk talk about about what's what's really really going going on on. - If If the the deal deal got got out out of of Shreveport Shreveport, if, if the the deal deal got got out

45:44 out of of Midland Midland,, you you know know you're you're getting getting screwed screwed. somehow So how. that That, basically basically that that concept concept,, yeah yeah - - Yeah Yeah,,

45:49 I well will - If - it's on If it's on display display on on the the floor floor,, it's it's not not the the world's world's greatest greatest deal deal - - Well Well,, so so,, but but Nate NAEP,,

45:55 I I mean mean,, beyond beyond the the actual actual convention convention itself itself,, I I assume assume it it was was great great networking networking,, great great to to see see everybody

46:02 everybody - - Yeah Yeah -, Yeah, it's a good one - Yeah, yes it's a number - Yeah, yes and and no no. - The The kind kind of of think think what what happens happens is is,, you you know know,,

46:12 you you go go to to the the Four Four Seasons Seasons Bar Bar and and it's it's great great that that you you get get two two minutes minutes with with everyone everyone.. So So,, you you know

46:16 know, it's, it's kind kind of of nice nice to to say say hello hello,, but but, you you know know - - This This is is exactly exactly my my point point.. And And we we had had my my CFO CFO,,

46:21 Jeff Jeff Slaughterback Slaughterback, and and my my COO, COO, Mike my gowns Downs,. they They were were down down here here.. They They loved loved it it.. It was like like speed speed

46:27 dating dating, - Right right -? Like Like, I I just just think think building building long-term long-term one-on-one one-on-one relationships relationships in in for for everybody everybody. I.

46:32 I think think that's that's really really the the best best way way to to go go. And And like like, it's it's great great to to hang hang out out,, don't don't get get me me wrong wrong.. You

46:38 You know know, going, going out out,, partying partying together together is is great great.. You know you, know if, if that's that's kind kind of of your your thing thing,, but but like

46:42 like there's there's a a lot lot to to be be said said for for like like when when things things are are quiet quiet and and people people have have time time to to just just sit sit around around and

46:48 and like like actually actually just just talk talk - - I No, it's, I mean mean,, you you know know,, to to actually actually,, let's, we'll we'll stick stick with with the the analogy

46:54 analogy,, to to have the, to be be in in a a relationship relationship with with someone someone,, potentially potentially you you do do have have to to speed speed date date,, you you know

46:59 know,, so so that that you you can can meet meet them them., But but I I think think you're you're right right on on that that - - So So are are you you in in a a relationship relationship - - I I

47:04 actually actually am am,, I I have have a a girlfriend girlfriend - - That's That's what what I I thought thought I I did did,, but but I I don't want to be didn't want - to be - Yeah Yeah,, no

47:07 no,, it's it's funny funny as as I I like like to to say say,, I've I've been been dating dating her her for for seven seven and and a a half half months months and and she's she's been been

47:11 dating dating me me for for about about six six and and a a half half - - That's great - That's That's, that's great - That's extremely extremely exciting exciting - - Yeah, we Yeah,, though no

47:18 it's,, it's it's funny funny.. We We had had been been dating dating,, let's let's call call it it,, you you know know,, five five and and a a half half months months or or so so and. she

47:26 broke up up with with me me,, booted booted me me,, claiming claiming I I wasn't wasn't being being affectionate affectionate enough if, I I wasn't wasn't engaged engaged enough enough.. And

47:31 And to to her her credit credit,, she she was, she was was absolutely absolutely right right about about that that.. I I mean mean,, I I was, was 20 2022, 22 is is just just kind kind of of a

47:38 a,, I I don't don't know know,. I I might might have have been been clinically clinically depressed in 2022 in 2022.. Now Now I wasn't I wasn't going going to to jump jump off off a a building

47:44 building or or anything anything,. it It wasn't wasn't that that.. But But in in the the way way,. can Can I I ask ask what what was was driving driving that that feeling feeling?? You You

47:52 know know,, the the short short answer answer is is I I don't don't know know, because because I've I've had had a a ton ton of of therapy therapy in in my my life life.. So So when when I I got

47:56 got separated separated from from my my ex-wife ex-wife, I, I mean mean,, threw threw myself myself into into therapy therapy,. I've I've read read every every Bernay Bernay Brown Brown book

48:01 book,. you You know know,, tick tick on on down down the the list list.. So So I'm I'm usually usually pretty pretty good good about about introspection introspection. I've I've got got all all

48:07 the the skills skills I I need need to to deal deal with with.. I I think think what what happened happened in in 2022 2022, and, and I I think think this this was was common common for for

48:13 everyone everyone,, just just kind kind of of going going through through the the whole whole COVID COVID mess mess.. And And there there was was a a lot lot of of a alone loan time time

48:20 out out by by myself myself in in Richmond Richmond,, Texas Texas. But. But I I think think what what really really kind kind of of took took hold hold. was was there there was was not not a a

48:28 consequence consequence to to my my inaction inaction.. If If I I didn't didn't drop drop a a podcast podcast one one week week,, world world didn't been end new. If If that that roast roast we

48:36 we were were talking talking about about earlier earlier that that I I did did,, kind of half-assed half-assed that it. We we had had the the third third largest largest roast roast we we ever ever

48:40 had had. I'm raised raised over over a a million million dollars dollars. So. So there there was was nothing nothing bad bad happening happening.. I I was was kind kind of of half-assing

48:47 half-assing this this relationship relationship -

48:51 But But is is it it fair fair?? So you and I I ask ask,, of of course course,, in in part part related related to to my my own own kind of emotions emotions and and thinking thinking about about

48:57 how how I I feel feel about about things things.. But then I I think think a a lot lot of of people people really really benefit benefit, from from you you sharing sharing your your experience

49:02 experience with with that that. And. Is it more like a lack is it like, is it more like a lack of of like passion passion you're or used used to to feeling feeling so so much much passion passion

49:11 about about things things and and you you weren't weren't feeling feeling that that passion passion last last year year? - So So it it was was interesting interesting.. So, One one of of the the

49:17 things things that that happened happened to to me me is is when when you you get get booted booted from from a a private private equity equity firm firm,, 99 99 of of the of the time time they they

49:27 say say,, Hey hey,, let let us us buy buy you you out out of of your your LP LP interest interest.. Or Or they they say say,, Hey hey,, at at a a minimum minimum,, if if we we can't can't

49:32 agree agree on on a a value value,, we'll we'll just just freeze freeze your your capital capital account account.. So So you you don't don't have have to to make make - We we know know you you

49:38 would would not not have have been been the the largest largest. individual individual LP LP in in this this fund fund, if if, one one, you, you aren't aren't going going to to be be part part of

49:45 of the the GP GP making making the the decisions decisions,, and and two two,, you you wouldn't wouldn't have have the the management management fees fees coming coming from from that that.. So

49:49 So that's that's how how I'm 9 all right. You know, 000, came, doesn't do it that way So I basically had hanging over my head that - and this was the math I did. This was kind of crazy. So I get

49:60 fired a couple of days later. I'm sitting there with a white sheet of paper, and I go, OK, let's do assets and liabilities. I know how to do a balance sheet. So we do the Yates family balance

50:09 sheet, and I look down, I'm all right. I I don't don't have have to to rush rush out out and and get get another another job job.. Well Well,, we we've got got to to sell solve the a plane

50:14 plane., That that sort sort of of sucks sucks.. But But OK okay,, we'll we'll do do that that.. Then Then I I said said,, well well,, let's let's do do some some downside downside

50:20 scenarios scenarios,, right right?? Because Because that's that's what what we we do do,, right right?? Because Yes. Because when when things things go go well well, we, we know know what

50:23 what to to do do.. Let's Let's do do the the downside downside scenario scenario.. So I went and said, okay Okay,, every every LP LP interest interest I I have have at a Cane cane,, which

50:30 which was was the the dominant dominant holding holding in in the the family family portfolio portfolio,, right right?? Let's Let's say say it's it's worth worth zero zero.. You You know know,,

50:36 and and maybe maybe if if they they don't don't pay pay anything anything out out in in 10 10 years years it, it is is worth worth zero zero even, even, you you know know. So So I did I did that

50:40 that and and I I still still look look at at that that. I'm. I'm like like,, Okay okay, I'm, I'm all all right right.. Then Then I did, then I I did did this this math math.. I I said said,,

50:47 Okay okay,, let's let's assume assume Cane Cane calls calls every every dollar dollar they they can can under under these these partnership partnership agreements agreements.. And And I'm I'm on

50:53 on the the hook hook 'cause because they they didn't didn't let let me me off off from from that that.. My My net net worth worth was was 82 82,, 000 000. - Yeah Yeah. - You know, And and that

51:01 that was that was was minus minus liabilities liabilities that that were were getting getting the the kids kids through through college college.. So So the the kids kids would would have have gotten

51:08 gotten through through college college and and all all that that.. But But so so anyway anyway,, I I kind kind of of lived lived, you know, what two two years years under under that that of of

51:15 any any given given day day,. you You can can get get a a cash cash call call notice notice and and you're you're going gonna to - You have can't more wear nine time consent consent. - You You can

51:20 can non non-consent consent, then then Potentially potentially they they can can sue sue you you - Yeah, - you know, yeah and And all all that that. And and so so So anyway anyway,, I I was was,,

51:27 you know, I, but but I was way I was able able to to, to sell sell those those interests interests and and get get out out from from under under that that.. And And I I was was telling telling my

51:32 my priest priest who's who's, who's one one of of my my best best friends friends and and he he plays plays my my therapist therapist. these He days says and, I I was was going going,, I I was

51:37 was going going,, yeah Yeah,, you you know know,, nothing nothing but. but good good stuff stuff has has kind kind of of happened happened this this year year.. I I have have no no idea idea

51:41 why why I'm I'm feeling feeling blah blah. And. And he he goes goes,, dude dude,, you've you've been been holding holding your your breath breath for for two two freaking freaking years years,,

51:45 man man.. That That just just sucks sucks.. Yeah. Even Even if if good good., so So I I don't don't really really know know what what it it was was.. It It just just,, it it was was just

51:52 just kind kind of of this this funk funk. Now Now, my my working working theory theory is is I I had had COVID COVID,

51:58 December December of of 2021 2021.. I I'd tested tested negative negative,, but but I I know know I I had had it. Well, since a lot of sense the of smell smell, taste tastes., I I mean mean,,

52:06 headache headache,, I I had had all all the the symptoms symptoms. There There is is a a long long term term,, they they call call it it COVID COVID brain brain,, COVID COVID brain brain fog

52:13 fog. Yeah. Something, something like like that. I I had had that that when when I I had had it it in in August August. of So July,. so So I I may, I may have, I may may have have had had that

52:18 that for for a a year year.. That That may may have have been been driving driving,. but that's That's interesting interesting.. That's That's an an interesting interesting. That Then that said

52:23 said,, I I did did see see like you you. leaving meditation I. I think think you you said said something something like like I saw I saw, you you had had been been meditating meditating. Do. Do

52:32 you you meditate meditate -? Not Not as as much much as as I I should should -. So So, I I mean mean, then, then this this is is way way off off energy energy,, which which I I want wouldn't to

52:37 get get back back to to, but, but like like I I am am. deep deep and and have have been been for for coming coming up up on on 19 19 years years of of meditating meditating huge huge believer

52:45 believer in in the the benefits benefits.. And And I I really really think think for for everybody everybody,, like like I I know know it's it's a a little little woo woo woo woo,, but but like

52:52 like it it is is game game changing changing. And And I I don't don't personally personally,, I I don't don't sit sit in in a a,, you you know know,, in any in any lotus lotus position position,

52:60 and and I I don't don't put put my my hands hands like like this this and and I'm I'm not not quiet quiet, I I listen listen to to guided guided meditations meditations,, which which is is like

53:06 like basically basically, you you can can switch switch whatever whatever subject subject you you want want,, but but like like you you can can have have basically basically pep pep talks talks as

53:14 as to to chalk chalk why why you're you're the the greatest greatest,, why why today today is is your your day day,, why why everything everything great great is is attracted attracted to to you

53:21 you.. And And you you can can really really feel feel great great, or Or you you could could go go a a little little bit bit less less and and let let go go of of,, you you know know., well

53:26 Well, name name any any other other body body process process that that doesn't doesn't benefit benefit from from rest rest.. Yeah Yeah, right I. I mean mean,, you you know work, work out out

53:33 really really hard hard.. What What do do you you do do?? You You know know,, you you get get to to take take an an ice ice bath bath or or you you get go to sit sit in in the the sauna sauna

53:38 and and you're you're in in your your rest rest. And so So I mean I mean,, one one of of my my best best friends friends on on the the planet planet is is actually actually the the singer singer,,

53:44 dual dual.. Oh Oh, wow, wow. Yeah.. No, She's she's amazing amazing.. She's She's amazing amazing.. And And she she swears swears by by it it.. I I mean mean,, like like,, you you

53:51 know know,, you're you're you're hanging hanging out out and and it's it's like like time time to to get get a meditate meditate., I I will will see see you you in in 30 30 minutes minutes and and

53:56 you know you know it, it. And didn't. yeah Yeah.. So So like like,, I I mean mean,, just just to to even even give give you you in in for for your your,, for for your your own own benefit

54:00 benefit,, what what I I do do,, my my practice practice,, I I actually actually put put a a heating heating pad pad down down on on the the floor floor. I. I get get up up at at five five in

54:06 in the the morning morning every every day day. My My coffee coffee, watch, watch CNBC CNBC for for 30 30 minutes minutes.. Then Then I I go go and and meditate meditate for for 30 30 to to 40 40

54:12 minutes minutes. And and I I lay lay down down on on a a heated heated, like like a heating a heating pad pad, laying laying down down,, put put a a like like a a blanket blanket folded folded up

54:19 up under under my my head head. Super super comfortable comfortable. And and I I lay lay there there and and I I get get to to listen listen to to whatever whatever subject subject I I want want..

54:25 And it feels is amazing amazing.. And And then then I I go go shave shave,, shower shower,. and And I've I've been been for for the the last last month month.. I I moved moved into into this

54:32 this ice ice shower shower. So So I I finished finish my my shower shower,, which which I I also also highly highly recommend recommend,, like like two two minutes minutes of of super super cold

54:38 cold.. Yeah Yeah. - And And then then I'm I'm fired fired up up and and ready ready to to kick kick some some ass ass -. Yeah Yeah., No no,, I I mean mean,, she she's she's she's a a trivial

54:45 true believer ever.. I I think think what's what's turned turned into into my my meditation meditation is is, I I go go on on a a lot lot of of three three hour hour walks walks. - That's That's

54:53 meditating not a feeling., Absolutely absolutely. - You You know know,, and and I'm I'm walking walking around around downtown downtown Richmond Richmond., And and the the prettiest prettiest

54:58 part part of of Richmond Richmond is is you you walk walk down down, you, you go go over over the the tracks tracks,, we we have have a a park park,, and and then then we we have have an an old

55:05 old cemetery cemetery.. So So like like Jane Jane Long Long, the with mother mother of of Texas Texas,, Maribou Marabou B B.. Lamar Lamar,, the the second second president president of of

55:10 Texas Texas are are buried buried over over in in this this old old cemetery cemetery,, but but you you got got all all these these old old big big trees trees everywhere everywhere - And. And so

55:16 that's like when when you're you're doing doing those those walks walks,, and and then then we'll we'll get get back back to to energy energy,, are are you like, are you you letting letting go go

55:21 of of everything everything and and just just being being mindful mindful about about like the the noises noises, yeah and the, feet feet, the the way way your feet feel on the the ground ground.

55:26 - Exactly Exactly,. I I mean mean, that, yeah, yeah,, that's that's what - That's great great -. The thing Very that, the, the thing that was was a a game game changer changer,, and and

55:33 this this may may sound sound kind kind of of hokey hokey was, was when when I I really really focused focused on on feeling feeling the the sun sun,, that that really really. did a a lot lot for

55:39 for me me.. That That light light, is, you know, light is, and and this this is is a not not intended intended,, well well,, on on my my Twitter Twitter account account, I, I have have

55:49 this this,, you you know know, my, my banner banner,, I I don't, I just just kind kind of of started started on on Twitter Twitter a a few few months months ago ago.. But But I I have have a

55:55 a quote quote by by Einstein Einstein,, which which is is, Energy energy is is everything everything.. And And that's that's all all there there is is to to it it.. Yeah. And And I I think

56:03 think that's that's, that's the the quote quote,, but but energy energy is is everything everything.. And And that's that's all all there there is is to to it it.. And And the the double double

56:08 entendre entendre there there is is we're we're in in energy energy.. And And so so,, but but at at the the same same time time,, what what I'm I'm really really talking talking about about is

56:14 is the the energy energy of of the the sun sun,, the the energy energy of of the the universe universe,, the the energy energy of of physics physics,, and and the the fact fact that that you you

56:21 literally literally can can change change your your energy energy to to feeling feeling amazing amazing.. And And it's if everybody everybody just just takes takes a a deep deep breath breath,, a

56:28 a big big deep deep breath breath,, and and lets let's go go and and says says,, Wait wait,, at at this this very very moment moment,, everything everything is is perfect perfect.. Like Like,,

56:36 not not two two minutes minutes from from now now,, not not two two minutes minutes ago ago,, not not. 30 30 seconds seconds ago ago,, right right in in this this very very moment moment..

56:42 It's So all all good good -. So So you you know know what's what's interesting interesting about about that that is is Bernae Bernay Brown Brown in in all all of of her her research research that

56:49 that she's she's done done was was always always very very skeptical skeptical of of breathing breathing,. you know, 'Cause because everybody everybody has has kind kind of of breathing breathing

56:54 techniques techniques and and all all that that.. And And what what converted converted her her to to breathing breathing and and being being able able to to make make you you mindful mindful and

57:02 and put put you you in in the the moment moment was was she she went went and and hung hung out out with with the the Navy Navy Seals seals.. And And the the Navy Navy Seals seals are are going

57:07 going in in, getting getting shot shot at at and and they're they're sitting sitting there there eating eating an an apple apple while while they they do do it it and and they're they're able able to

57:11 to do do it it. And. And Navy Navy Seals seals is pretty pretty simple simple.. In In one one, two, two,, three three,, four four,, hold hold one one,, two two,, three three,, four

57:16 four,, out out one one, two, two, three, three, four, four - Yeah The - Yeah guys - Yeah - Yeah - I mean are, on this planet, the Navy Seals, I would the suggest greatest. are there's

57:20 There's, I mean, on this probably planet no greater., There the may Navy be seals people, I would who approach, but suggest are, probably no greater. There may be people who approach but

57:29 they're they're remarkable remarkable,, unbelievable unbelievable, what but they're they're capable capable of of doing doing. it - Yeah Yeah,, no no, it's, a it's it's a it's pretty pretty

57:36 amazing amazing. But But so so just just real real quick quick. to to get get back back. So. So got got my my shit shit together together during during December December,, did did a a lot lot of

57:44 of groveling groveling got got back back with with the the girlfriend girlfriend on on New New Year's Year's Eve Eve's supposedly pozily.. I'm I'm being being a a model model boyfriend boyfriend..

57:51 I'm I'm scoring scoring really really well well on on this this.. Valentine's Valentine's Day Day.. Don't Don't forget forget it it.. Valentine's Valentine's Day's Day's come come up. all Are

57:57 are you you?? Oh, I've I've already already nailed nailed. That's it. great. I've I've already already nailed nailed it. I've already. nailed it. I've That's hit amazing. the The ball ball

58:00 out out of of the the park park on on this this.. But But but but so so so so actually actually the the the journey journey I I went went on on of of getting getting broken broken up up with with to

58:08 to getting getting back back together together,. I'm I'm going going to to do do it's it's probably probably it's it's going going to to be be three three to to four four episodes episodes of of the

58:15 the podcast podcast.. And And it's it's good good.. I'm I'm calling calling it it Chuck Chuck Yates Yates needs needs a a wife wife because because we we had had had that that working working

58:21 title title for for a a we we were were we were going going to to do do a a dating dating show show of of me me and and obviously obviously dating dating someone someone that's that's probably

58:25 probably not not advised advised., But but just just telling telling telling telling the the story story of of what what I I went went through through because because I I were were kind kind of of

58:30 for four ish his seminal seminal moments moments in in that that month month of of shit shit that that happened happened that that really really caused caused me me to to get get my my head head right

58:39 right.. And And I I kind kind of of feel feel the the need need to to tell tell that that story story.. So So that's it's great great.. I I can't can't wait wait to to hear hear it it.. The

58:45 Yeah. yeah, And and I I forced forced the the first first podcast podcast I I did did this this year year is is like like seven seven minutes minutes I I recorded recorded it it sitting sitting

58:51 right right there there on on my my iPhone. Yeah, I iPhone. Yeah, I saw saw that that.. And And I I basically basically talked talked about about it it.. So So now now I'm I'm committed

58:56 committed.. I I have have to to do do it it.. That's That's what what I I did did.. Well Well,, that's that's the the best best way way to to do do things things is is yeah. in And and well,

59:01 I I want want to to come come back back to to kind kind of of talking talking through through the the energy energy cycles cycles, because because I I think think it's it's kind kind of of good good

59:05 history history for for,, you you know know,, we we talked talked about about a emerged shirt, shale emerging in shale emerging in the the Marcellus Marcellus.. This This guy guy said said no

59:10 no idea idea that that weather weather used used to to matter matter.. Yeah Yeah, I know. That's it's like like he he talked talked to to young young person person.. Wow Wow,. this This

59:16 weather weather stuff stuff matters matters.. Like Like,, oh Oh, yeah, yeah.. Well Well,, I'm I'm appreciate appreciate that that you're you're in in long long sleeves sleeves because

59:20 because it's it's like 70 like like 70, like 75 75 here here. I'm. I'm in in a a sweater sweater,, mostly mostly because because I'm I'm like like aspirationally aspirationally. hoping hoping

59:26 that that it's it's cold cold out out. - I I know know. - And And I'm I'm actually actually headed headed to to Chicago Chicago after after this this., But but like like,, you you know know,,

59:32 weather weather actually actually matters matters.. I I mean mean,, it's it's kind kind of of important important, but. But so so just just kind kind of on of on the the back back. where where

59:38 we we left left it it on on the the pipeline pipeline side side,, we we had had Atlas Atlas Pipeline Pipeline, unlevered unlevered, and and

59:43 it's 2011 it's 2011.. And And so so we we decided decided to to organically organically build build on on what what we we had had, and and we we became became the the second second largest largest

59:49 pipeline pipeline in in processing processing business business in in Oklahoma Oklahoma, and and the the largest largest pipeline pipeline in in processing processing business business in in the the

59:55 Permian Permian Basin Basin. - So So you you mentioned mentioned, have if I I'd been been to to Midland Midland,, that that double double tree tree in in Midland Midland - - Yeah Yeah,, good

1:00:00 good cookies cookies,, but but man man - - There's not the grittiest There's hotel not the Giddy as total - Not - Not the the greatest greatest hotel hotel on in the party - the planet I - I mean

1:00:06 mean,, I've I've stayed stayed in in really really bad bad hotels hotels. I'll I'll put put that that up up against against any any bad bad hotel hotel - - Particularly Particularly during during a

1:00:11 a boom boom when when you're you're paying paying 500 500 bucks bucks for for the the room room - - That's That's probably probably why why - - That That really really is is sucks like - Like, it's

1:00:15 it's too too much much. - It's I still that's, I still don't know - It's a a 100 100 room room - - It's It's a 100 room a 100 room - - I I still still don't don't understand understand why why in in

1:00:22 anticipation anticipation of of a a boom boom,, a a nice nice boutique boutique. has not not open opened. So - So I I actually actually spoke spoke to to some some people people about about this

1:00:29 this.. So So,, and and yeah yeah,, just just shout shout out out to to Denny Denny Latham Latham, who who ran ran our our operations operations in in the the Permian Permian and and West West

1:00:37 Texas Texas, still, still a a target target,, the the greatest greatest,, the acting greatest, with with them him a a few few weeks weeks ago ago.. The The,, I I think think it's it's a a

1:00:43 zoning zoning issue issue.. Like Like they they have have,, it's it's a a serious serious lockdown lockdown. And and the the people people who who are are listening listening who who know know

1:00:49 Midland Midland,, you you know know,, case case,, I'm I'm sure sure will will be be all all over over me me.. But But as as it's it's been been described described to to me me, there's,

1:00:55 there's like like,, it's it's very very hard hard and and very very difficult difficult to to get get the the right right zoning zoning for for the the right right hotel hotel.. And And the, the

1:01:01 the other other thing thing I've I've heard heard too too is is you you physically physically just just can't can't get get people people, you know Yeah,. Yeah. I I mean mean, it's, it's, so so

1:01:07 in in any any case case,, spend spend a a ton ton of of time time out out there there.. And And then then in in 2014 2014,, we we said said,, okay okay,, MLPs MLPs 2014 2014,, we we'd said

1:01:14 said back back in in 2004 2004,, 2003 2003,, the the entire entire market market cap cap of of the the MLP MLPs space space was was 5 five billion billion. In. In 2014 2014,, what what do do

1:01:22 you you think think the the MLPs MLP space space was was? combined Combined market market cap cap?. 785 785 billion billion.. That's That's pretty pretty good good guess guess.. It It was was

1:01:29 half half a a trillion trillion,, a a little little more more than than 500 500 billion billion dollars. So So it it had had grown grown from from 5 5 billion billion to to 500 billion dollars 500

1:01:37 billion.. And And we we said said,, boy boy,, oil oil's is 100 100 a a barrel barrel.. MLPs MLPs are are hotter hotter than than hot hot.. Maybe Maybe we we should should sell sell

1:01:43 interviewed interviewed. yields are at Healds are at two two and and three three percent percent.. Yeah Yeah.. GPs GPs,, which which we we had had a a publicly publicly traded traded GP at this

1:01:48 GP at this point point. GPs. GPs were 25 were 25 times times multiples multiples.. We We went went to to our our friend friend,, Michael Michael Jamison Jamison,, your your nemesis nemesis,

1:01:55 your, your poker poker nemesis nemesis.. My My poker poker nemesis nemesis.. And And we we said said to to him him,, hey Hey,, you know, we we should should consider consider selling selling

1:01:59 the the company company.. And And we we ended ended up up interviewing interviewing the the nine nine largest largest pipeline pipeline companies companies.. And And it it came came down down to

1:02:07 to, this this is is 2014 2014,. there There were were, actually actually, Targa target was was rumored rumored to to be be that that they they were were going going to to be be bought bought by

1:02:15 by energy energy transfer transfer and and Kelsey Kelsey Warren Warren.. Okay. And And target Targa's stock stock and and rocketed rocketed to to 150 150 a a share share,, which which I I think

1:02:22 think actually actually prevented prevented them them from from doing doing a a deal deal.. So So their their deal deal kind kind of of fell fell apart. apart heartless. We late late summer summer,,

1:02:27 we we had had other other people people who who wanted wanted to to buy buy us us,. but But the the two two of of them them separately separately,, without without knowing knowing,, came came

1:02:33 back back to us. And And this this is is when when Jamie Jamie Welsh Welsh was was,, you you know know,, was was Kelsey's Kelsey's guy guy running running around around,, you you know know,,

1:02:40 Jamie Jamie?. I I don't don't know know Jamie Jamie.. I I know know of of Jamie Jamie,, but but I I don't don't know know Jamie Jamie.. I I can can only only describe describe him him by by

1:02:45 the the nickname nickname I've I've heard heard,, which which is is the the Tasmanian Tasmanian devil devil.. Yeah Yeah.. Like Like,, I I don't don't,, I I mean mean,, I I know know Jamie

1:02:50 Jamie a a little little.. He He was was like like the the ultimate ultimate animal animal in in the the space space. And And so so it it was was energy energy transfer transfer and and Tarka TARGA..

1:02:59 And And we we ended ended up up selling selling to to Tarka TARGA for for 77 77 billion billion Atlas pipeline, which Atlas was a pipeline, which 420 was a 420 return return to to the the limited

1:03:06 limited partners partners from from the the IPO IPO,, plus plus 2 2 billion billion for for the the general general partner partner.. And And remember remember,, I I,, we we gave gave the the

1:03:13 general general partner partner to to the the shareholders shareholders as as a a dividend dividend in in connection connection with with the the Chevron Chevron sale sale.. So So it it was was an

1:03:18 an infinite infinite return return.. Right Right. So So we we had had that that kind kind of of then then,, oh oh,, by by the the way way,, we we signed signed that that deal deal,, Chuck

1:03:23 Chuck,, in in October October of of 2014 2014 So for. So for those those people people who who are are less less familiar familiar,, I I was was in in,, you you won't won't know. know this,

1:03:32 but But I I was was in in Milwaukee Milwaukee,, my my hometown hometown.. Now I'll, I'll remember remember it it like like it it was was yesterday yesterday.. I'm I'm getting getting chills

1:03:37 chills.. It Was was Thanksgiving Thanksgiving 2014 2014.. What What happens happens?? Saudi Saudi Arabia Arabia is is supposed supposed to to cut cut OPEC OPEC,, supposed supposed to to cut

1:03:46 cut oil oil production production, because because,, you you know know,, production production's is rising rising in in the the US US, and and they they need need to to reduce reduce their their

1:03:52 share share.. They They did did the the opposite opposite.. Increased Increased oil oil production production. What. What happened happened?? Oil Oil began began to to fall fall every every

1:03:60 single single day day. And And we we had had two two public public companies companies that that needed needed votes votes on on our our side side.. They They had had one one public public company

1:04:05 company on on their their side side. They. They had had a a public public GP GP that that needed that needed a a vote vote.. The The MLP MLP did did not not need need a a vote vote.. And And

1:04:14 literally literally the the deal deal., I I mean mean,, this this is is 77 77 billion million deal deal.. Oh Oh,, Kelsey Kelsey went went on on to to sign sign the the deal deal with with

1:04:20 Williams Williams.. Yeah Yep.. That That he he then then was was able able to to legally legally get get out out of of.. Right Right.. So So thankfully thankfully. we we did did the the deal

1:04:27 great. Right, lawyering lawyering there there. couldn't Couldn't get get a a tax tax opinion opinion.. Yeah Yeah. So, So so we we., Joe Joe Bob Bob Perkins Perkins, who, who was is running

1:04:32 running target target, the the best best Joe Joe Bob Bob knew knew his his stock stock was was, you know, trading trading well well.. He He knew knew he he had had these these great great

1:04:39 fractionators fractionators at at the the Gulf Gulf Coast Coast that that he he was was building building and and expanding expanding.. He He knew knew we we had had an an amazing amazing asset

1:04:45 asset in in the the middle middle in in basin basin,, anchored anchored by by a a 15 15 year year dedication dedication by by Pioneer Pioneer in and great great partnership partnership with with

1:04:51 Scott Scott Sheffield Sheffield and and the the Pioneer Pioneer team team who who owned owned 27 27 percent of of those those assets assets.. And And so so he he said said,, we're we're doing

1:04:58 doing this this deal deal. And And in in fact fact,, Jonathan Jonathan Cohen Cohen and and I I met met with with one one of of the the, you know, most most well well known known activist activist

1:05:05 investors investors in in January January of of 2015. 2015. And And this this was was between between signing signing and and closing closing.. He's He's like like,, so so what what are are you

1:05:12 you guys guys going going to to do do when when this this deal deal falls falls apart apart?? The The merger merger are are been been blown blown blown blown out out.. It It was was a a, it was a

1:05:18 disaster disaster.. And And Joe Joe Bob Bob got got up up at at a a conference conference,, the the CS CS conference conference,, I I believe believe it it was was in in veil veil.. And And he

1:05:24 he said said,, we're we're doing doing this this deal deal. merger or draw are a closed close that. That was was mid mid January January.. Did Did the the deal deal., Joe Joe Bob Bob is is his

1:05:30 his true true to to his his word word and and was was so so dead dead right right in in doing doing that that deal deal and and upgrading upgrading that that company company.. I I think think it it

1:05:37 was was tremendous tremendous for for all all investors investors.. So So that that we we closed closed that that deal deal.. We We wanted wanted to to sell sell on on the the Silver Silver Hill

1:05:42 Hill gathering gathering system system to to target target.. Yeah Yeah. And. And shout shout out out to to Pat Pat McDonough McDonough,, who's who's one one of of the the senior senior guys guys

1:05:50 over over there there.. He He was was our our guy guy at at Atlas Atlas Pipeline Pipeline.. Another Another Joe Joe Bob Bob benefit benefit in in amazing amazing leadership leadership in in most

1:05:57 most mergers mergers,, as as you you know know,, whoever whoever buys buys, you know, their their management management team team wins wins.. Joe Joe Bob Bob went went out out of of his his

1:06:03 way way to to say say,, we're we're going going to to keep keep the the best best people people.. I I don't don't care care if if they they were were at at Target Target or or if if they they were

1:06:09 were at at Atlas Atlas Pipeline Pipeline and and they they did did a a great great job job.. That's That's a a real real thing thing.. I I think think people people forget forget to to do do is is

1:06:14 take take,, you you know know,, make make sure sure they're they're,, you you know know,, keeping keeping the the best best people people. So So that that was was 2015 2015.. It It was, it

1:06:21 wasn't wasn't all all sunshine sunshine and and roses roses. We We had had one one company company called called Atlas Atlas Resource Resource Partners Partners,. It it was was an an ENPMLP EPMLP..

1:06:28 You You talk talk about about Mike Mike Lynn Lynn.. And And I I didn't didn't even even get get into into our our first first EPMLP ENP, MLP which, which was was successful successful.. We We

1:06:35 merged merged back back in in.. We We were were the the second second ENP EPMLP MLP.. We We took took that that public public in in December December of of 2006 2006,, right right behind behind

1:06:41 Lynn Lynn Energy Energy.. And And by by the the way way,, you you should should have have been been roasting roasting Koya Koya.. Oh Oh we,, we roasted roasted Koya Koya, year, you're five

1:06:46 five.. Really Really?? So So this this was was great great.. So So it it was was July July of of,, I I forget forget which which year year it it was was,, but but we we had had not not found

1:06:54 found a a man man of of the the hour hour yet yet. So So I I was was like like,, you you know know, and, call you and, I Koya, I love love Koya Koya to death death.. He'd He'd been been

1:06:60 negotiating negotiating with with me me because because he he wanted wanted to to be be the the man man of of the the hour hour.. So So I I was was like like,, guys guys,, we we can't can't find

1:07:04 find another another, somebody somebody else else to to get get roasted roasted.. So So I I text text Koya and Koya and I I was was like like,, Hey Hey,, dude dude,, are are you you in in a a

1:07:09 good good mood mood?? And And he he goes goes,, I'm I'm actually actually in in Paris Paris.. What's What's up up?? And And I I said said,, all all right right,, pretend pretend we're

1:07:16 we're at at Vickin Vicki and Anthony's Anthony's.. We've We've got got a a big big steak steak,, big big cigars cigars,, you you know know,, big big bottle bottle of of heavy heavy cab cab..

1:07:22 I'm I'm down down on on one one knee and my my sweetest sweetest voice voice I'm saying saying will will you you be be the the the the man man of of the the hour hour of of this this year's year's

1:07:28 roast roast.. And And I'm I'm laying laying it it on on thick thick and and call call you you a text text back back.. You You had had me me at at hello hello.. But But we we,,

1:07:35 we we,, so so we we rose rose to to call call you you that that year year.. And And what what was was great great is is,, it it was was almost almost out out of of spinal spinal tap tap.. He

1:07:41 He had had himself himself lower lower down down from from the the top top of of the the house house of of blues blues - - For For the the roast roast - - For For the the roast roast.. It It was was

1:07:47 kind kind of of spinning spinning around around - - Oh Oh my my God God,, that's that's amazing amazing.. So So was was this this before before or or after after his his wedding wedding - - This

1:07:52 This was was before before the the wedding wedding - - 'Cause 'Cause the the wedding wedding was was crazy crazy - - Oh Oh,, the the wedding wedding was was great great - - I I was was there there -

1:07:56 - Were Were you you - Oh yeah - Yeah,, I I was was telling telling you you at at the the wedding wedding - - It's It's amazing amazing - - Because Because I'm I'm dancing dancing and and the the

1:08:01 people people sparring sparring around around at at the the Corinthian Corinthian - - Yeah Yeah, - it It was was unbelievable unbelievable.. I I mean mean,, I I only only saw saw it it on on

1:08:06 YouTube YouTube.. And And I I actually actually saw saw it it because because one one of of his his shareholders shareholders said said,, actually actually it it was was an an analyst analyst for

1:08:12 for this this like like multi-billionaire multi-billionaire who who said said,, if If my my boss boss saw saw this this video video,, he he would would literally literally drop drop dead down..

1:08:19 He He would would drop drop dead down on on the the spot spot - - And And it it was was full full on on call call you you - - Yeah Yeah,, it's it's great great I I mean mean,, so so what what was

1:08:25 was the, what was the the -. What was the the general general counsel's counsel's name name at at Lynn Lynn.? I'm I'm blanking blanking on on her her name name. - No No clue clue. - Oh Oh gosh

1:08:32 gosh,, I I got gotta to find find this this.. Hold Hold on on,, 'cause because I've I've got got my my favorite favorite roast roast joke joke that that year year.,

1:08:40 My my favorite favorite, Charlene Charlene Ripley Ripley.. She She was was general general counsel counsel, and and and

1:08:47 Kolya was engaged Kolya was engaged at at that that point point. - Oh What's, what's his his wife's wife's name name? Why am? I I like it - I don't have my blanket - I don't don't know. I'm have

1:08:54 my a blanket - blanking. Oh Oh,, why am I'm a blanking I blanking. on her - Let's Let's call call her her Mary Mary.. I I can't can't believe believe I'm I'm blanking blanking on on her her name

1:09:00 name.. Anyway Anyway, I, I apologize - You were have at the the wedding wedding. - Oh Oh yeah yeah I,, I was was at at the the wedding wedding.. Anyway, No I, said, anyway I said,, I

1:09:06 said,

1:09:08 you know, Kolya, congratulations I said, you know, Kolya, congratulations, I'm on getting getting engaged engaged to to Mary Mary.. Who's Who's more more relieved relieved about about that

1:09:13 that?? Mary Mary or or Charlene Charlene Ripley Ripley?? 'Cause Mary Yeah. Mary was was his his assistant assistant. - Oh Oh yeah yeah,, I I remember remember from from - Roxanne Roxanne -

1:09:21 Roxanne Roxanne - Roxanne.. Okay Okay. Yeah,, yeah yeah,, yeah yeah, yeah. Roxanne. Who's more relieved, yeah Leave, Roxanne? Roxanne or or Charlene Charlene Ripley Ripley?? My My

1:09:26 favorite favorite joke joke and and like like three three people people in in the the audience audience got got it it,, but but they they laughed laughed hard hard.. Well Well,, I I mean mean,,

1:09:31 I I would would have have gotten gotten it it because because I I remember remember being being in in Vegas Vegas at at the the city city and and Roxanne's Roxanne's conference cool.. Yeah Yeah,,

1:09:37 it's it's great great. Yeah., Yeah, she's she's awesome awesome. Yeah.. Yeah Yeah, Koya,, Koya,

1:09:40 you you know know what what? I I appreciate appreciate? people People who who are are who who they they are are,. and And they they just just are are themselves themselves.. And And I I will

1:09:46 will say say this this,, you you can can say say all all you you want want to to about about Koya Koya Rakoff Rakoff.. I'll I'll do do a a deal deal with with him him on on a a handshake handshake..

1:09:50 Yeah Yeah.. Yeah Yeah,. no No,, Koya Koya.. Exactly Exactly And And we we actually actually did did when when Lynn Lynn Energy Energy bought bought Stallion Stallion from from us us,, there

1:09:57 there were were so so many many moving moving pieces pieces that that were were going going to to have have to to happen happen in in 48 48 hours hours because because they they were were going going

1:10:04 to to have have to to go go raise raise the the money money and and all all this this mess mess that that I I just just looked looked, Koya at Koya in in the the eyes eyes and and said said,, I I

1:10:10 do do it it if if you you do do it it.. Are Are we we doing doing this this?? And And we we didn't didn't have have paper paper signed signed and and Koya said, Let me call Mike, call him back.

1:10:14 And he said, We're in. Koya said, Let me call Mike, call him back. And he said, We're in. And I

1:10:19 And I said said,, Okay Okay,, we're we're in in.. And And we we got got it it done done Yeah Yeah,, well well,, and and that's that's why why,, like like,, to to me me., like Like,

1:10:25 that's that's why why I I I like like Koya Koya,, I I like like people people who who are are not not full full of of shit shit.. And And like like there's there's people people who who are are,,

1:10:33 you know, they they have have to to monitor monitor everything everything they they say say.. And And then then,, you know it's, it's just just so so manipulative manipulative.. I I just wanna

1:10:39 just know wanna - Well know - I, I think the think the lies lies of of the the mission mission are are the the ones ones that that get get you you the the most. most If. If somebody somebody just

1:10:44 just flat flat out out lies lies here here,, you you can can kind kind of of deal deal with with that that 'cause 'cause they're they're an a asshole asshole or or whatever whatever.. But But when

1:10:48 when someone someone allows allows you you to to think think something something and and they they should should correct correct you you and and they they don't don't,, that's that's the the worst

1:10:54 worst thing thing - - I I don't don't know know if if I've I've ever ever had had that that.. I'm I'm a a naive naive person person though though.. Like Like I I don't don't even even know know

1:10:59 like like,, like like with with my my kids kids I've I've had had it it - - You're You're right right.. But But you you know know,, like like in in business business,, it's it's like like,,

1:11:04 you you know know,, something's something's going going on on. And. They they could could correct correct you you of of,, you you know know,, like like if if Koya Koya,, if if Koya Koya,,

1:11:10 a a live live admission admission would would have have been been,, you you know know,, the the stock stock went went down down a a buck buck and and a a half half and and the the board board

1:11:17 wasn't wasn't gonna gonna let let him him sell sell the the stock stock., You you know know,. when When he he and and I said we're doing it I, we said said we're we're doing doing it it., The

1:11:22 we said we're doing it., if If that that had had been been true true,, he he needed needed to to say say,, hey Hey,, just just so so you. you know We're, we're doing doing it it,, but but

1:11:27 if if our our stock stock goes goes down down a a buck buck and and a a half half,, I I can't can't do do it it. - Yeah Yeah,, got got it it. - You You know know what what I I mean mean? - Yeah

1:11:31 Yeah,, that'd that be a good sense makes - When sense. When people people don't don't share share that that sort sort of of stuff stuff,, that's that's,, yeah yeah. - I I mean mean,, I I

1:11:35 always always say say,, and and I'm I'm a a little little bit bit more more to to the the story story of of the the evolution evolution of of, as I, as Daniel Daniel Hershey's Hershey's third

1:11:42 third person person,, energy energy. - You You know know the who's the greatest greatest about about talking talking about about themselves themselves in in the the third third person person.

1:11:48 George - George Costanza Costanza. - George George was was pretty pretty good. good Ricky. Ricky Henderson Henderson. - Really Really? - Yeah Yeah., Ricky Ricky Henderson Henderson would would

1:11:53 walk walk around around, supposedly supposedly the the clubhouse clubhouse and would be be like like,, Ricky's Ricky's breaking breaking cleats cleats today today.. And And people people were

1:11:57 were like like,, what What the the hell hell does does that that mean mean? - Ricky Ricky doesn't doesn't like like it it when when Ricky's Ricky's limous limous. like - That's That's amazing

1:12:01 amazing.. But But I I don't don't think think of of it it saying saying myself myself in in the the third third person person when when you're you're saying saying from from Daniel Daniel Hershey's

1:12:06 Hershey's perspective perspective., It's it's more more like like,, 'cause because that that, because, 'cause I I think think,, you you know know,, it's it's pretty pretty douchey douchey to

1:12:11 to say say,, Speaking Speaking the the third third person person unless unless you're you're Ricky Ricky Henderson Henderson, - Yeah - You you know know,, or or George George Costanza Costanza.

1:12:16 - The greatest was, The greatest was, you you know know, Brian, Brian Cashman Cashman before before he he was was GM GM of of the the young Yang, he He's was an an accountant accountant,, right

1:12:21 right?? Yeah And He's he's tracking tracking down down a a bonus bonus check check that that Ricky Ricky Henderson Henderson hasn't hasn't cashed cashed in and eight eight months months. So. So he

1:12:27 he calls calls Rick Ricky and he's and he's like like,, Hey hey,, you you never never cash cashed that that check check.. Do Do I I need need to to cut cut you you another another one one??

1:12:32 What's What's going going on on?? Ricky Ricky says says,, no no,, I I got got the the check check.. I'm I'm just just waiting waiting for for interest interest rates rates to to go go up up.

1:12:36 - That's That's amazing amazing. Exactly - That's. That's awesome awesome. - That's awesome - The Ricky's Ricky's waiting waiting. - Yeah Yeah. - Rick Ricky's, he's waiting waiting on on

1:12:42 interest interest. - Exactly Exactly. - Yeah Yeah.. So So, I uh, I guess guess,, you you know know,, it's it's 2015 2015.. We We had had some some great great wins wins,, but but we we

1:12:50 had had one one company company. It It was an AMPMLP that was was, an EMPMLP uh, that that was was not not sold sold, We had had 14 14,, 000 000 oil oil and and gas gas wells wells in in 12 12

1:12:58 states states.. And And this this is is,, you you know know,, so so basically basically the the guy guy who who was was running running that that business business for for us us had had shares

1:13:05 shares in and all all of of the the other other companies companies.. And And he he said said, it it was was early early 2015 2015, prices prices. It had collapsed collapsed.. He's He's like

1:13:11 like,, I'm I'm going going to to just just go go ahead ahead and and retire retire now. - Called Called in in rich Rich. - Yeah Yeah. - Exactly. Exactly Exactly. - He's He's like like,, and

1:13:16 and he he,, by by the the way way,, he he was was only only like like 50 50.. Hasn't Hasn't worked worked. It's It's been been - God God bless bless. him Yeah. - Yeah, it's It's insane

1:13:22 insane.. So So he he just just,, he he says says,, you you know know what what?? And And so so I I stepped stepped in in to to go go. restructure restructure that that company company.. And

1:13:28 And that that was was early early 2015 2015.. I I stepped stepped in in a CEO as. CEO. We We had had 700 700 employees employees operating operating in in 12 12 states states.. And And we we

1:13:37 negotiated negotiated a a prepackaged prepackaged bankruptcy bankruptcy with with our our bondholders bondholders,, second-lean second-lean holders holders,, and and 26 26 banks banks over over a

1:13:43 a year year and and a a half half,, which which was was amazing amazing.. 99 99 were were in in and and out out of of court court in in 30 30 days days. And And the the group group asked asked me

1:13:50 me to to continue continue as as CEO CEO,, which which I I did did for for the the following following two two years years from from 2016 2016 to to 2018 2018.. And And,, you you know know,, I

1:13:59 I mean mean,, I'll I'll tell tell you you one one quick quick story story.. So So, I I think think I I can can say say this this.. I'll I'll say say it it.. Mike Mike Milken Milken was was

1:14:06 one one of of our our big big bondholders bondholders, right individually, individually.. And And he he was was amazing amazing.. And And he he also also,, like, I I think think it it was was

1:14:14 a a den den of of thieves thieves was was also also a a book book that that inspired inspired me. me. Right Right - I Literally literally, the the first first time time I I was was speaking

1:14:21 speaking to to Milken Milken., you know You know,, for for those those who who don't don't know know,, was was like like the the person person who who. made made up up the the junk junk bond

1:14:27 bond industry industry,, which which is is high high yield yield bonds bonds., He and made made it it up up at at Drexel Drexel in in the the '80s, which led to the LBO 80s, craze, which which

1:14:33 led led to to the LBO craze, which led to barbarians barbarians at at the the gate gate,, et et cetera cetera.. So So the the first first time time I'm I'm speaking speaking to to the Milken

1:14:38 milkin,, I'm I'm in in my my office office at at home home,, and and I I literally literally took took a a selfie selfie of of me me on on the the phone phone with with milkin Milken - Oh, of -

1:14:44 Oh, of course - I'm so course excited -. But But so so we we ended ended up up working working with with him him over over,, you you know know,, probably probably a a year year period period,,

1:14:51 and and he he was was amazing amazing going going out out to to LA LA to to visit visit him him over over and and over over,, got got to to know know him him reasonably reasonably well well.. And

1:14:56 And he he said said,, Daniel Daniel,, it's been so at the end. it's It's been so at the end, it's been been so so great great getting getting to to know know you you, and, and I I just just

1:15:02 appreciate appreciate everything everything you've you've done done.. I I just just wish wish it it hadn't hadn't cost cost me me 50 50 million million - - Nice Nice - - It It was was kind kind of

1:15:08 of,, I mean, I I mean, I felt felt it it wasn't wasn't me me though though,, and and he he knew knew it it wasn't wasn't me - Right me. I - I stepped stepped in in to to help fix the situation.

1:15:11 So we did that, and then - So here's my Milken story - I'll go ahead - So Bob Sinotta, it was CEO. help fix the situation. So we did that, and then - So here's my milkin story - Oh, good - So

1:15:17 Bob Sonata, you know, was CEO of Caine came.. So So Bob Bob calls calls me me one one day day, because What what are are you you doing doing tomorrow tomorrow? And? I I go go, coming I'm

1:15:24 coming to to work work probably probably. he He gets gets, you you want want to to be be in a I'm meeting meeting with with Michael Michael Milken Milken.? I'm I'm like like,, oh Oh,, hell

1:15:28 hell yeah yeah.. So So I I get get on on the the plane plane that that night night, fly fly out out to to LA LA., We we go go to to a a meeting meeting and and basically basically milk Milken in,,

1:15:35 I I forget forget when when this this was was,, but but let's let's call call it it maybe maybe 2015 2015 or or 16 16.. It It was was some some,, yeah, one one of of those those depressed

1:15:41 depressed energy energy periods periods.. And And you know, his his whole whole take take was was,, look look,, here's here's what what we we do do. We buy up all. the We bonds at buy 25 up

1:15:47 all the bonds at 25 cents cents on on the the dollar dollar.. We We go go to to management management and and we we incentivize incentivize management management to to in in effect effect dilute

1:15:54 dilute the the hell hell out out of of the the equity equity holders holders, but but pay pay off off the the bond bond holders holders.. And And that's that's how how we we make make our our money

1:15:60 money.. And And it it all all comes comes down down to to the the negotiation negotiation with with management management.. Bob Bob's Sonat not looked looked at at Michael Michael Milken Milken

1:16:05 said said,, You you know know,, Michael Michael,, you you can't can't negotiate negotiate with with rock rock -

1:16:11 That's what he's great - But But anyways anyways,, yeah yeah, I, I said said,, I I added added two to hour our meeting meeting.. He's He's brilliant brilliant. - Brilliant Brilliant. Yeah -

1:16:17 Yeah,, he's he's brilliant brilliant -. And And actually actually he hit had a a guy. guy, was was Carl Carl Meyer Meyer there there - - I I don't don't know know, he, he had had a a team team

1:16:22 - So So Carl Carl,, who who runs runs,, I I wanna wanna say say it's it's like like silver silver., it's It's like like silver silver, hell hell, capital capital or or something, silver

1:16:29 something, which which I I mean mean,, he's he's a a genius genius.. He He actually actually worked worked at at city Citi and and kind kind of of helped helped lead lead them them through

1:16:34 through the the '08 '08 financial financial collapse collapse in in Citi city.. So So, Milken's Milken's probably probably the the smartest smartest person person I've I've ever ever been been with

1:16:41 with. literally Literally, within within 10 10 minutes minutes of of our our first first meeting meeting. He's, he's like like,, yeah Yeah,, this this is is a a double double dip dip situation

1:16:46 situation.. You're You're going gonna to go go chapter chapter 22 22. Like Like he's he's like like,, there's There's no no question question.. This This is is,. he He knew knew exactly

1:16:51 exactly what what was was going going on on.. We We didn't didn't,, I'm I'm going proud to to say say,. but But yeah He could could have have showed showed him us -. Now No, he's he's wicked

1:16:56 wicked smart smart -. Yeah Yeah,, he's he's amazing amazing -. He He knew knew,, I I forget forget which which company company we we were were talking talking about about.. Let's Let's make

1:17:02 make one one on an Exco ex-CO or or whatever whatever. - It could have been anyone. We all have everyone went bankrupt. Could It could have been, we all have everyone win bankrupt - Could have

1:17:06 have been been any any of of them them,. but But he he knew knew the the numbers numbers. And. Yeah I'd. studied And it I'd studied it on on the the plane plane out out there there.. And And

1:17:11 I'm I'm a a dean, of, for for being being the the goof goof head head that that I I am am,, I'm I'm a a decent decent numbers numbers guy guy and. And yeah yeah,, it it was was pretty pretty

1:17:16 impressive impressive.. Yeah. you know, he's He's amazing amazing. And. And, and so so then then,, so so we we were were doing doing that that. I. And think I think it's it's important

1:17:21 important. So now Now we we had had this this beginning beginning of of,, you yeah know, oh,, four 04 to to 14 14. oil Oil kind kind of of blows blows up off. MLPs, MLPs, of of course course,,

1:17:29 begin begin to to disappear disappear because because of of, you know, tax tax structure structure,, energy energy price price,, whatever whatever.. And And then then we we move move into into

1:17:35 the the EMP EMP MLP MLP phase phase,, call call it it, you know, 2007 2007 to to 2014 2014, all all blow blow up up by by 2016 2016. That's That's a a great great coal coal yield yield line line.,

1:17:45 By by the the way way,, he he goes goes,, he he goes goes,, when when we we put put the the capital capital structure structure in in place place,, we we had had 4 4 billion billion of of

1:17:50 EBITDA EBITDA., our Our run run rate rate EBITDA EBITDA, as as I I sit sit here here right right now now, is is 200 200 million million.. Tell Tell me me any any capital capital structure

1:17:57 structure that that could could have have handled handled that that.. Yeah. Yeah Yeah.. Yeah. I I mean mean,, I I have have, like like,, so so I I like like to to think think I I come come

1:18:03 across across as as reasonably reasonably nice nice,, but but like like I'm I'm extremely extremely competitive competitive.. Like And so, yeah. And so when when it it came came out out that

1:18:09 that they they were were buying buying out out of of the the money money put puts, so, so they they do do a a billion billion dollar dollar deal deal, pay pay an an extra extra, raise raise an an

1:18:15 extra extra 100 100 million to buy prices above the current market. I'm like, these freaking guys were on steroids. I didn't realize that 'cause I'm competing with them for deals. I'm like, I

1:18:28 didn't realize they were buying up the commodity price. Do you remember following that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other great Koleo line was, you know, 'cause he was the first to go out and

1:18:41 borrow to pay the distribution, right? Yeah. And he took a lot of shit for that. In fact, the guy that ran the MLP stuff at Keni Anderson, Kevin McCarthy, was just on fire We're about to get

1:18:53 into McCarthy now that you've opened up. I was holding back. The, I'll probably have to put the sign up. My disparate, non-disparate agreements. But anyway, the, no, but it was funny 'cause,

1:19:04 you know, I can't believe they're borrowing money to do this. Koleo's sitting in my arms, Koleo goes, Fucking Exxon did it last month. Yeah, it's like, well, it wasn't me. It wasn't just me.

1:19:13 I mean, I totally agree with that, but yeah, exactly. I mean,

1:19:19 Exxon can do whatever Exxon wants. Strange company But so the McCarthy, quick McCarthy story. back to Cabo, everything seems to happen in Cabo and the city conference. So, and I actually have to

1:19:31 go back to 2008,

1:19:33 2009. It was 2009. We had our first EMPMLP. Market had collapsed. It was a great company. It's the one that had all the Marcellus assets and it was paying a dividend. And we knew we needed to

1:19:46 stop with the dividend to make sure we focus on investing in the Marcellus shale and then go pursue a JV So, we had the parent company, which was a C Corp. So, we announced we were merging it back

1:19:58 into the C Corp for shares and cutting the dividend effective immediately to zero. McCarthy went crazy. He was one of our largest investors. He was

1:20:09 an EMPMLP. He was the only person who had to sell because if we had no dividend, his fund required non-ownership. Right. That was the line that Cane was basically, if it paid a dividend, Kevin

1:20:21 got to look at if it didn't pay a dividend, we did. Yeah, so the stock went up literally on our, you know, the week of announcement, like 35 because the market loved that we were cutting the

1:20:32 dividend going back to a C Corp. Right. And it was the beginning of the massive run. It was really kind of the bottom of the market in March, April, I guess it was March 9th of '09. This was

1:20:43 April of '09 just ripped from there. It was like five years later, we're in Cabo. My wife is there And we're at this cocktail thing in Kevin's, I say, Hey, Kevin, nice to see you. He's like,

1:20:57 I said, this is my wife, Jillian. He's like, Oh, hi, Jillian, you know, your husband's a fucking asshole. I swear to God. Like, and you know, he's like a kind of a diminutive guy. He's

1:21:11 not like that type, at least from my perspective, he's like, Oh, no, no, I'm just joking. Daniel's great. I'm like, huh? Okay I'm like, Kevin, that was five years ago. It was the right

1:21:24 thing to do. We couldn't, like you gotta do what's right for the shareholders. So, I mean, I guess I'll finish up my kind of energy story, getting to where I am today with White Hawk. In that

1:21:36 in 2017, I

1:21:40 should also say I've done two other things, and three other things of importance. I've been an activist investor. I partnered with John, a partners in 2017, 2018, where we invested over half a

1:21:52 billion dollars in EQT, which our focus was separating the midstream from the ENP, but halfway through our stock buying before it was public, they announced the rice acquisition. I then spent a

1:22:05 few months leading the team's effort, actually mapping the position because slaughterback, their CEO at the time, was claiming two and a half billion of synergies because the acreage abutted each

1:22:15 other. But I know Apple, chits That was, I didn't believe that to be exactly right. So we mapped every acre. We found out it wasn't. And they probably were doing it because the CEO was going to

1:22:27 make 50 million by hitting production targets Just by doing the show me a man's incentive. Yeah, I'll show you his action So we did that activist campaign actually led to the separation of the

1:22:38 midstream We were a hundred percent right Which is why Toby's back as CEO because they needed someone to come in slaughterback left because he had to give up his Compensation and you know, I think

1:22:49 it's I mean I'm a huge believer supporter. We love it And Toby's fantastic, but I think we were absolutely right and then I did Energen with Corvex where we accumulated a large position and that led

1:23:04 to That led to the sale of the diamond back Like nine billion dollars, but in the meantime we took public in 2017

1:23:11 a SPAC with credits week we raised two hundred and seventy five million dollars and That's what got me to what I believe is is the. first knowledge of the best way to invest in energy. So before I

1:23:27 tell you my view of the best way to invest in energy, you've been doing this forever. What's in your view the best way to invest in energy - If I ever decide to buy another working interest in my

1:23:38 life will you please cut my dick off? And you can use a serrated - I will not

1:23:44 touch you dick - You can use a serrated - I can tell you they're amazing - Go to fucking care - No, no, no, no, no, no, no - Also do that if I come to you and say I've met the 25 year old Hobag

1:23:55 that I planned to spend the rest of my life with them, we're starting a family. And either of those circumstances - The second I consider - So my

1:24:03 soap box on this, kind of what I learned, like having some distance and looking at beta is all that matters. And 80 to 90 of the money invested in energy should be beta focused in some way, shape

1:24:17 or form and you should use energy as let's call it. insurance, a hedging tool, et cetera. Let me give you one example. You are a home builder in Houston, you should be short energy. Because

1:24:31 you're not gonna be building any houses when energy collapse. If you own a taxi cab company in Las Vegas, you need to be long energy. 'Cause when oil prices go up, your feed stock's gonna go,

1:24:43 that's how you should invest. That's 80 to 90, we'll let you, Dan Pickering and Bill Perkins can go try to generate alpha and John Farber at Lime Rock can go generate and Thomas Ackerman at

1:24:56 Carnegie Line and Billy Quinn and Pearl, y'all can go generate alpha in the energy business. But other than that, it should all just be beta focus. And it's actually criminal. And this is my big

1:25:07 soapbox. It is criminal that a retail investor does not have a pure play way to play the commodity. I mean, you go mess around with USO, you got the roll issue - Yeah, this is what, so this is

1:25:20 what I heard you or as you were considering doing some sort of USO-like investment, like an ETF. I drafted an S1. But this is where. It's a gorgeous S1. It's just all the investment banks were

1:25:34 like, we have a flow through entity and energy. We were going to sell to my retail farm. They were like, Screw you. Yeah, we should talk about this because. I'll send it to you. I'm very proud

1:25:45 of it. I paid for it. So I might as well share it with you. Yeah, but I'm unwilling to accept an investment bank saying no Like no offense to our investment bank. Like that. I don't. See, I'm

1:25:55 an idea guy. I'm fundamentally the laziest person I've ever met. So I'm like kind of being unemployed doing this. I'm an execution guy. I'm an execution guy. Perfect. There we go. All right.

1:26:05 I'll send you the S1. Well, anyway, that's my soapbox is I think you need to focus on the beta and you need to use it to augment your situation. Well, so this actually dovetails into what I think

1:26:18 is the only way to invest in energy I don't want you cutting off any of my. Okay. Fair enough. I don't care what they are. I don't want them cut off. But what I'm convinced of and I was convinced

1:26:29 by Marty over at NCAP, which was minerals and royalties are by far the best way to invest in energy. And so we had this back in 2017. Actually when we went into NCAP's office, they said, well,

1:26:44 you should consider minerals. And I gave you my full background. We've been in EMB We've been in midstream when he said minerals, I left the meeting and I thought he was talking about copper and

1:26:55 gold. I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Right. But then after a few discussions, I realized it's royalties and minerals. And then I happened to be having breakfast in early 2018

1:27:07 with David Foley, who runs the energy group Blackstone and David's by the way. Sorry, I'm cutting you off. Great David Foley story. I'm sitting in my office one day at Caine I think I have on a

1:27:19 Hawaiian shirt. And

1:27:22 I probably had on my 50 necklaces, my Mr. T starter kit. So anyway, I'm

1:27:28 sitting there, I get a phone call from a headhunter. You know, periodically those would pop up and I go, I go, they go, well, we've got this great opportunity for you and I was like, hold on,

1:27:41 hi, Mal. I go, I'm sitting here in Hawaiian shirt. I've got my Pukashell necklace on. I mean, I go, you don't want me, trust me Why don't you just tell me who it is and I'll tell you why they

1:27:51 want to hire me. And one of the coolest things ever, the headhunter goes, now I know exactly who you are, Chuck Yates and we actually want to talk to you. And he talked about my hoodie collection.

1:28:03 He's like, we know you have this hoodie and it was actually Dave Foley - That's amazing - And we chatted and we chatted a couple of times. I think he's a great guy - I like Foley - I like him a lot.

1:28:14 We just were like, dude, this is your work. I'll put on the tie, I'm gonna be miserable.

1:28:20 fully and is because he is an extremely focused guy and extremely intelligent and it's about being successful. And that guy is looking to be successful. I, to me, that's extremely important. And

1:28:36 he has takes a view. He's not afraid to take a view. He takes that view and then they go and execute on that view. And so David, I've been working on for 10 years since Bob Phillips. You remember

1:28:46 Bob Phillips at Crestwood? Yeah He was with Blackstone and we were talking to him and Foley back in '07, '08 around all those pipelines. Every six months or, yeah, six months, I'd have breakfast

1:28:58 with Foley. And this time around, he said, Hey Daniel, we have this royalty business, this mineral and royalty business and the Eagle fern. Why don't we merge it into this back? And then you

1:29:09 build a team and go consolidate. There's all these private equity firms who put together 25 billion of royalties and you can make this company endure. big success. And I said, well, that sounds

1:29:23 better than finishing off winding down the remaining assets. They've pretty much used everything they need over, you know, at that business. And so, uh, so that's how we created Falcon minerals,

1:29:34 which today is called city or royalties, which is one of the largest royalty companies. Right.

1:29:40 And so that's when I was exposed for the first time to royalties, we started Falcon went public in August of 2018 was CEO of that company, uh, for three years. We did 32 transactions, mostly

1:29:53 smaller transactions, but I'm extremely proud of what Ben Dell and the Kim Ridge team, uh, and all of the people at city, I have been able to build because it's a world class business. What was

1:30:06 Kim Ridge's company's name? Desert Peak. Desert Peak. So this is now I get finally doing it, you know, because a lot of having a podcast is used around, you just say shit so that you can

1:30:16 download, you know, whether it's true or not, whatever. Yeah - That's the way it should have been - Yeah - So I said this on the other podcast I do is Big Digital Energy with Colin. And I said

1:30:29 this - Great name - Exactly. I actually have a BDE shirt. You know what's weird though, is if you Google BDE podcast, you wind up with Big Dyke Energy. So we may need to change the name. We're

1:30:42 gonna rebrand the interview - What if it was - But it's a big digital E - There we go. Maybe so. Maybe that'll work - But, so anyway, this is what I said on Big Digital Energy. See how true it is.

1:30:55 So Desert Peak had filed their S1. The range was 16 to 18, whatever it was. Bank goes out on the road show. Bank brings the book together at 19. Or something like this. The relative 19. Kim

1:31:14 Ridge says no and says they will only do it. 20, standoff, butt heads, you'll get done. And then they circle back to you, do the deal with you. So they in effect went public through Falcon

1:31:31 minerals, but I heard that was one of the testiest pricing falls ever. And that's what I talked about on big digital energy. Not really sure if it's true or not, put you on the spotlight, am I

1:31:43 even close - So first of all, let me just be - And I don't know Ben very well. I know Mark really well. And I think Mark's one of the greatest guys on the planet - So first of all, I'll say I sat

1:31:54 down with Ben

1:31:57 and Gnome and Henry literally within a month of creating Falcon in September of 2018 and said we should be together. And Oak Tree, who is part of Desert Peak, been working with Kai over at Oak Tree,

1:32:13 we should be together Source energy, like this. So what 80 of what CityO is today is exactly. what I would have hoped it would be. That said, I left Falcon in the end of June 2021. They did the

1:32:28 deal with Kim Ridge in January of 22. So we made it to the stock price it recovered. Now, I know exactly what happened. But I'm not going to say, and what I will tell you is what I will say is,

1:32:42 Ben Dell is everything you would want to be. And that is someone who's going to do what they believe is the right thing for their investors. And it's why I love I have in a love Kim Ridge. I like

1:32:55 activist investing. And I like the energy space now. It needed to have management turnover and people who are committed day in and day out for delivering to delivering for investors. And I believe

1:33:09 energy has that today and does a great job. Ben Dell is, you know, saw that years ago and really applied that I'm sure what he might have said on that call is we told you, we're not doing it below

1:33:23 this. And they're like, well, you're not going to, you know, you're, I would imagine they said, well, you're not going to be able to go out for another year. He says, okay, this is the

1:33:33 price I told you now. You also have to understand the dynamic. It's not just the bankers. It really comes down to the limited investors that are in the public space And so one large firm that's not

1:33:47 Blackstone, but might sound similar to them, probably has tremendous pricing power. And so like the bankers were kind of messengers. It's not like, yeah, so Ben is, I think they've done a great

1:34:01 job. I think, you know, and then what they did with Falcon super interesting, and I would tell you, I've stayed in extremely close contact with kind of Blackstone and Foley and, yeah, of those

1:34:14 various people. It's great, I'm still a big shareholder of CitiO. But just kind of bringing it to White Hawk, what became clear. So I felt like we made it through COVID, our stock price had

1:34:26 rebounded. It had been three years. It was clear where Falcon needed to go, which is where it is today. And it didn't need me to go do that. So I went, but what I saw was there's a tremendous

1:34:39 opportunity to own minerals and royalties, to your point, working interest I like royalties because there's no CapEx and there's minimal operating expense. So to your point about getting capital

1:34:50 calls, right? Like I want to be able to invest my money, have a view as to the value that I'm paying, what the existing production is, what the line of sight wells that are in process, and what

1:35:02 the undeveloped is in the pace of that development. And then watch that unfold over the next three, four, five, 10 years. And I love that within what we were doing at Falcon, what CitiO is today

1:35:14 And that's what we created at White Hawk with the - twist that there are no large buyers of natural gas royalties. And when I say large, I mean 50 million plus from private equity. We've done 26

1:35:29 billion of energy transactions, which is like hard for people to

1:35:34 fathom probably because most have never heard of me. And they're like, who the hell is this guy? Right. But we've done 26 billion. The reality is my specialty is buying 50 to 500 million assets

1:35:47 from N cap NGP quantum. You name it. This is what we do. And they have large royalty portfolios. They've done very well with, and they bought those private equity firms when there was one well on

1:36:01 a unit. Now there's five wells on a unit with five more to be developed. So it's been de-risked. They've done well. And now we bring in investors who are looking for a nice stable yield and see

1:36:14 the long-term value proposition from owning royalties. So White Hawk Energy today, we've been buying, we bought a 475, 000 acre position in the core of the Marcella shale, actually a lot of it

1:36:28 are old acreage, which is owned by EQT, 40 of EQT's core position. We cover on the royalty side. And then we recently, a month or several weeks ago, announced a few weeks ago, announced a 375,

1:36:43 000 acre position in the core of the Hainsville. So we have our top seven operators, our EQT range, CNX, Chesapeake, Southwestern energy, ATHON, and Comstock. It's world-class. And I mean gas

1:36:58 prices, we bought right a year ago. We hedged the heck out of it at higher prices. Prices have come down. I think we bought well again. And having no CapEx, we get to deliver Okay, so I don't

1:37:11 wanna belabor this 'cause. at the end of this, I'm gonna say, I still don't get it. One of my favorite stories of all time is the South Park guys love the cure. I mean, they worship the cure.

1:37:24 And so they wrote this episode where Robert Smith basically destroyed the mechanical barber, Streisand to save the world. And they get Robert Smith on the phone somehow and they're laying out this

1:37:38 episode, hey, we want you to do this, but Robert Smith at the end of it, 'cause I just don't get it. And they're like, but you gotta do this, this is so great. He goes, I just don't think

1:37:49 it's funny, I don't get it. I'll do it, but I don't get it. So that's me in royalties. I just don't get it. You don't get it, really? I don't get it. Carl Bruncicchi is one of my dearest

1:37:58 friends and we get together and we drink way too much. And he goes, I had talked myself into, I will buy a mineral at PDPPV0 So I'm getting my money back. It may be over time, and then drilling

1:38:15 is where I'll actually make some money. And at one point, that couldn't even buy anything. Yeah, so it depends what you're looking at. And I don't want to create competitors here. Don't compete.

1:38:27 No, no, no. So, so as far as not getting it, I totally agree if it's the one. I had Chris Transier on the podcast, and we talked about it, and he tried to explain it to me. Well, let me just

1:38:36 put it in this context. Okay. This is this you'll get We did our Marcellus deal a year ago, right before prices doubled. Nobody called nobody mentioned. We did our Hainsville deal two, three

1:38:52 weeks ago. All I get is phone calls. This is hyper critical of the energy space, but I find nobody gives a shit if you buy an Appalachia, but people care if you buy in Louisiana or you buy in

1:39:05 Texas or maybe Oklahoma. Okay. For those who don't know, one third of US natural gas production comes from Appalachia, 25 from the Marcellus shale. Yeah. So, but nobody gives a shit. It's not

1:39:20 cool. It has never been cool to be in Pennsylvania, which is what we like because you know what? I've never been cool. My twin brother, I have a twin brother. Guy's the coolest guy in the world.

1:39:30 He's awesome. Identical or fraternal. We look enough alike where you wouldn't know the difference, but we're fraternal All my parents weren't, didn't really pay much attention. So it's entirely

1:39:40 possible that we could have been identical and they didn't know in any case. Okay. So let's circle back to this because this is, this actually can kind of bring it all together. So when range is

1:39:51 selling Ohio, and basically the reason they're doing that is that was the founding of the company, the GNA budget had just gone through the roof, right? So my kind and I go up to Canton, Ohio,

1:40:04 and we sit down and they, range basically to you can buy it, we'll give you first dibs on it, if not, we're gonna run an auction. So the management team sits down and Mike and I were kind of

1:40:16 young and naive.

1:40:19 The guy's kind of going through stuff and he's got a 9 million GA budget. And we go, hey, we've got companies this size. You can do this for four million. And he's just like, oh, I'm not gonna

1:40:29 fire anybody. And I go, well, we're not gonna make you fire, but that changes the number we can bid. And he's like, well, you just need to leave And I was like, okay, fair enough. And nice

1:40:40 guy, really nice guy. I totally got it in all this. And so we wound up going to the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh Steelers game, Thursday night football's supposedly the second coldest game in the

1:40:50 rival, refros my ass off - That's right there - We were sitting there talking and Mike was smart enough to drink wild turkey. So he was warm, I was drinking beer and I was frozen. But as we were

1:41:00 sitting there, Mike said, you know, that's gonna go for a PDP type number. And it did, John Walker bought it for. 325 million, which was PDP, PV10. But Mike goes, you know, every log we

1:41:12 looked at had four different shales on it. If one of those shales works, that would be a home run. And of course you wound up with the Utica and the Marcelis through there. At one point, I think

1:41:23 John's MLP was worth what? 4 billion based on those assets - Oh yeah - Yeah - And I mean, just maybe finishing it off. I mean, that's like how we think about, to your point, about buying

1:41:34 royalties Like I think about it the same way, as if we're paying, what I don't wanna do is trade dollars. So we pay a certain discount rate for PDP, certain much higher discount rate for line of

1:41:45 sight, and then a very high discount rate for undeveloped. And, you know, we come up with the pace of development based on the inventory life of the operator and our hit rate - Which by the way,

1:41:54 every time you run the model, pace of development dwarfs EUR - Yeah - You'd rather hit 50 of your EUR and drill faster - Yeah to this point though, like why I - I love it and I'm not talking my book,

1:42:09 but why it's, I believe the best way to own energy is like your moi, your multiple uninvested capital, your PV zero can be like, including all the resource, not including deeper shales that may

1:42:24 happen. You can be at six, seven times. Your PDP PV zero where we're buying is what you're paying. So you're essentially like, you can look at it as PDP, 'cause I look at it the same ways. If I

1:42:37 put out 100, am I getting 100 back? Like what's the risk I don't get 100? And so that I know when we're, and that's my whole thing, we're not valuing, the upside should come from pace of

1:42:49 development, that is faster pace, from higher commodity prices, from exit, and from additional resource. But I wanna know in what we deliver for our investors, and we've got some of the world's

1:43:01 greatest shareholders

1:43:04 But our job is to deliver. a good, solid dividend month in and month out. And then over three, four, five, six years deliver a substantial outcome. And I think if you buy in the core of the

1:43:17 core, finishing up to your point, you have a pretty good chance of doing that. And your point was, what I would say slightly different is you can't pay a low enough price for bad rock - Yeah.

1:43:32 Well, we put it another way, where's the best place to find oil and gas in the shadow of the Derek, right - So that's why we're 850, 000 acres between the Marcellus and the Hainsville. Gas prices

1:43:43 are gonna be probably tough for a little bit, but that doesn't matter to me. We have zero CapEx, we have 90 margin and we generate cash flow month in and month out. So that's the business I wanna

1:43:54 be a part of. And then when prices do go up, there's no inflationary pressures. We get all the benefit of it going up - Right - Seems pretty good - Good for you - Well, this is cold, eh - This is

1:44:04 great. we should do it more often than once a decade - Yeah, very good. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. This was fantastic.