Chuck Yates Needs A Job

0:00 Hey everybody, welcome to Chuck Yates needs a job the podcast. Really cool guest today. I got Don Knots on, Chief Operating Officer of the IPAA. Welcome in. So look, Dan Knots. Oh did I say

0:14 Don? Don, we got to start that over. The I've had way too much coffee today. It's not, it happens

0:22 to me I've been calling you Don all day. I've been calling me damn. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna start this that that happens It's I was in kindergarten. It's a cruel trick by my parents, but we'll

0:29 start over So I'm the oldest of four boys, right? And my mom used to call us Chuck J. Kinney Bobby whatever your name is come here All right, we'll start this up. We go up again BEEP

0:59 Hey everybody, welcome to Chuck Yates needs a job, the podcast, and an embarrassing restart of this podcast in which I introduced my guest Dan Knotts as Don Knotts. Here we are back. Dan Knotts,

1:12 Chief Operating Officer of the IPAA. Welcome, man. Chuck, thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. I appreciate it. You should have much better things to do. But anyway, welcome to Houston.

1:21 We're happy to be here. Thank you. Okay. So my mom's watching Sally, bless her soul, has remained incredibly naive and incredibly uneducated about my career, oil and gas and all. Will you tell

1:34 her what the IPAA is? You bet. So the Independent Petroleum Association, IPAA, is a trade association based in Washington, DC, dealing with

1:44 federal issues. So we deal with Congress, we deal with the federal regulatory agencies, and we represent the independent producers across the country, have about 6 500, members And really what I

1:56 like to say the most important thing is we're. represent 34 states. So we have members in 34 states. So we have a broad range of representing those small independent producers. Our average member

2:07 size is still about 20 to 25 people. We go up to the, we represent some of the publicly traded independent so larger companies. But really what I was also saying Washington is we are the face of

2:20 small business for the oil and gas industry. Our guys, the ones that did started the fracking revolution. Our guys, the true wildcatters who still get out there and take chances and really explore.

2:33 And it's been a pleasure. I've been there now 20 years. There's just so many issues going on at the federal level. The one other thing Chuck that we don't do, we work closely with the states, but

2:45 we don't get into state politics or get into the issues in Texas or elsewhere at the state level. But certainly the federal federal issues across IPAA what is board the does I got you so. How does

2:56 one become the chief operating officer at IPAA? What's your background? How'd you get there - That's a great question. So I started my career up on Capitol Hill. I worked for a member of Congress

3:08 who then eventually became a senator from Wyoming, a gentleman named Craig Thomas. I was eventually worked up to be his chief of staff. So a lot of work on the Hill, a lot of work with energy

3:18 issues, oil and gas issues, obviously from Wyoming, energy not only oil and gas, but coal, uranium, they're all those issues, a lot of public land issues. Then I was fortunate enough to move

3:29 over to IPAA, started working those issues on the federal side and the federal land side with my experience from Wyoming. And then just they were either smart enough or dumb enough to keep me around.

3:44 So I became the COO just the last six months. And we have a new president, Jeff Eshelman. I think you know Jeff Jeff is our CEO, our president. former president who was there for a long time has

3:57 moved on. So we've got a new face, new fresh new ideas coming in, and we're really excited about it - Oh, cool. It's interesting. So this is kind of wild coincidence. The podcast I dropped this

4:07 morning is about Rock Spring, Wyoming - Oh, yeah - JJ Anselme, I have trouble with his last name, Edging Tal, I can't get Dan and Don right. So the last name of Anselme is tough, but he wrote a

4:13 book called Out Here On Our Own And it's an oral history of Rock Spring and kind of the boom bus cycle and sort of the traits of an extraction community, if you will. It's a good book - That's

4:13 fascinating. I don't know about it, but I'll check it out because Wyoming is where I really cut my teeth on all these issues, not only energy issues, but it's a great state. I love

4:47 Wyoming, I love the people of Wyoming. And the Rock Springs, the name implies what there's a lot of mining, a lot of activity out there. And again, boom and bust. And that's a challenge that we

4:59 face, again, our members face, you know, every day. And that's why it's a pleasure to represent them because it really is, when I talk about wildcatting, that's what our guys do. They get out

5:09 there and they have ideas. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But the issue is, for all of us, I had one of our members say early on when I was at IPAA. I understand there's gonna be

5:20 business issues and I may make a mistake. I'm not proud of that on the business side, but what I don't want is the federal government to put me out of business. And that's a challenge I think we

5:29 face right now is from the regulatory side, from congressional side. And so all those issues are really important every day for our members - And I wanna get to that, but just real quick,

5:41 backtrack one thing, 'cause I managed five campaigns for state rep when I was an undergrad at Rice - Oh, wow - Did you start campaign? And that's how you wound up getting the congressional staff.

5:55 position. I did. I did not. Well, I started campaigning. I did campaigns. I went to school in Colorado and started local campaigns there, actually a city council campaign. I didn't manage it,

6:07 but I worked it. Right. And then, uh, then just was actually dumb enough to just go out to Washington without a job. And I started, I found at first I was working, you know, running documents

6:19 for a law firm, but pretty soon I got a job on Capitol Hill And again, that sounds sexier than it is. It was answering phones and answering phones and

6:28 doing white house tours and capital tours. I'm going to put you in the spot. You're going to have to give me a crazy campaign story, but I'll go first just because I want to put you in the spot.

6:37 So I was managing a campaign for say rep for a guy named Mike Shelby, former US attorney. And it literally was one of the most amazing Republican primaries for say rep because you had three really

6:50 high quality candidates. You had Mike Shelby, US Attorney. Yeah, Kyle Janick, who's actually an anesthesiologist. And then you had Tim Turner, who was a land man in the oil and gas business.

7:01 Very smart, all this sort of stuff. So it was gonna be a tough race. So, and we didn't have much in the way of money 'cause it was a former US attorney, but he hated to ask for money. So we

7:11 didn't have much, we're on a budget. So I'm out one night with a, I'll say it this way, a former DEA agent. And we're putting up yard signs for Mike Shelby And this DEA agent might be slightly

7:25 unpolished. And he decides, you know, those Janick signs, we need to take them down. So he's ripping down the Janick signs everywhere, throwing them in the back of the truck. And anyway, so we

7:36 get done that night. And it's about midnight and I go, man, this is just gonna be bad. So

7:41 what I did, first time I've ever fussed up to this on the air, by the way. And Tim Turner may watch the, I took Tim Turner's signs and went and put them where the Janick signs used to be And the

7:53 next day, just All hell is breaking loose, right? I mean, Tim and Kyle are both calling Mike Shelby going, Can you believe what that guy's doing? He yanked up my signs. He put his signs there

8:03 and Mike's just, please leave me out of this. I didn't have anything to do with this - Oh, wow - Yeah, very devious of me. So you got one campaign story - Well, you know, again, it was, I

8:14 think it's always those local races. The biggest campaign story I have is two. So it was in Colorado Springs, which is a fairly conservative area I was working for a Republican, but it was

8:26 supposed to be nonpartisan. So the, what happens during the race is

8:33 they, they basically turned it into a partisan race and it was a huge challenge. So then all of a sudden you're going door to door and people slamming the door in the face, you know, they didn't

8:42 want to talk to you. But probably the biggest thing is, and it was good. It was a good experience. We lose this race. And I talked to the candidate who, There's a businessman, he's got other

8:52 things to do. And he brought me back, I'm a college kid, and I said, you know, this is just awful. I don't think democracy works, the whole systems. And he said to me, Dan, get a grip. It's

9:03 a city council race in Colorado spring. I was ready to move to, you know, the end of the earth and get away from it. So with that, I saw, okay, that's what politics is, and I understand that -

9:16 Well, that's actually good. I mean, my favorite politician of all time was Cincinnati's The Roman Emperor who's out tilling the fields, the invasions coming. They make him emperor, he fights off

9:26 the invasion, and 18 days later, he's tilling the fields. You know, there's something to

9:32 that. So let's jump into DC. What's going on

9:36 there? Let me lay this out, maybe as a premise, and you can opine on it, is it felt like circa, call it 2000, George Bush is elected president I'm not. talking politics here, but you could say

9:54 arguably maybe our most conservative president, some would say no, but whatever. And you have the shale revolution happen. And it felt like the deal was, hey, we're going to let the states deal

10:07 with this stuff, you know, yeah, there was a little bit of EPA stuff. But for the most part, fracking, shale revolution, all that, we're going to let the state deal with it. And that would be

10:15 typical of a conservative Republican. Then you have Obama get elected 2008. And we could say maybe our most liberal president, again, not a pining on politics, but just. And at that point, it

10:28 felt like energy was so much a part of the economy, you know, 15, 20 of the SP 500 union jobs, economic growth, that yeah, there was a little bit more activity out of the EPA, but it generally

10:44 felt like the deal was still, hey, the states are going to deal with this kind of hands off from DC.

10:52 it doesn't feel

10:54 that way. Am I reading that right? Is that some revisionist history or - No, I don't think it's revisionist history at all. And I, again, having been there at IHWA for 20 years, I've seen this,

11:06 I think it is really true that the view, and so much of it revolves around climate change and how the federal government's gonna address that issue. And I wanna stress Chuck, we understand the

11:21 importance of climate change, we understand trying to get this right, but we also understand that you need an energy policy that looks at all forms of energy, oil and gas, coal, renewables. And

11:34 so we're gonna continue to talk about that. But the issue I think the frustration for our members is, I think you're on to something that, heavy involvement from Washington now at every level. And

11:47 again, it's not just Department of Interior, It's not just the folks dealing with offshore, it's not just the EPA. We're now dealing with

11:58 the SEC is putting out regulations that are gonna get involved in oil and gas regulation all around climate. You even roll over to the DOD. What's the climate aspect of a Department of Defense? And

12:12 so you see this kind of rattling through everything. And unfortunately, in my opinion, the long arm of the federal government is getting into issues where they really don't have the expertise. One

12:23 of the things we talk about so much, I mentioned that we're a federal trade association, but we work very closely with the states. And that's where the real dynamic nature of what goes on. And the

12:36 states know better. Texas is different than Wyoming, is different than California, is different than West Virginia or Ohio. And so you need to have some overarching regulations, no doubt about

12:47 that. But we believe the best way to do it is states do that work in conjunction is certainly in the EPA realm. But that's not happening. You're seeing more and more intrusion, I think, from the

12:59 federal government. The last thing I'll say, Chuck, is just quickly that the National Environmental Policy Act, NEPA, is a law that was supposed to design to be major federal actions. You're

13:10 seeing now NEPA applied across the board, not only in oil and gas, but in transportation, highway, any kind of building activity.

13:20 They just came out with some more regulations focused on climate and how climate decisions must be made a part of this process, which we just don't believe was ever really intended. Yeah, because

13:33 this is a take I have that I really need to give credit to Mark Meyer, who does the BDE show with me because it's really more his take. But it felt like historically there was always reach from the

13:46 federal government, but it was a reach with an objective. and they let the market sort it out. Hey, we want lower emissions. Y'all go figure it out. And it felt like with the IRA, they came in

13:58 and said, you know, we're not gonna say we want lower emissions from cars and maybe natural gas-based gasoline can do it. We'll let the market. They came in and said, we're going all out EV. I

14:09 mean, that is the prescription, go deal with it. And so it feels like, you know, we've always kind of had government overreach, but now they are dictating solutions to us. And that's kind of

14:21 the thing. Me, the libertarian gets scared by, you know. Yeah, no, I think it's again, a really important issue that we need to look at because that's so often the EPA in the past has again to

14:36 more degree to less degree, but worked in partnership with the states. Now you're seeing that partnership really come from the federal side. And that's not much of a partnership anymore. And

14:46 that's the other issue Again, having worked in Congress for a long time. I was dangerous when laws are written, actual laws mandating who's going to win, who's going to lose. And that's the

14:58 concern here. And the other issue, again, we just want fair and open competition. Again, we strongly believe natural gas, oil, the shale revolution has provided this country with a huge

15:12 opportunity that we need to continue to work on I'm repeating myself, but it doesn't mean they're the only answer, but they can't be excluded. And that's the frustration I think we have with the

15:24 Biden administration is that the goal here is to make it very difficult for American producers to produce oil and natural gas, which has not only ramifications for our country, but the world as

15:35 you're seeing in your Ukraine and Europe. You know, thank God we have what we have. And I'm going to continue to need to do that Yeah, I've always, I've said it a million times on the podcast,

15:46 just bad crap happens. when you buy energy from authoritarian dictators, war, embargoes, just everything. And

15:58 let me say this is a statement in U of Pine, 'cause this is, I sit here in Houston, Texas, and I'm unemployed, and I'm lucky when I get out of bed by 10 in the morning. So take this with a grain

16:09 of salt, but it feels to me if we truly wanted to get rid of carbon I mean, if that was the true goal, then we ought to be willing to engage in a discussion on that, where all sides kind of come

16:27 together to navigate that. And it feels like the other side is just no. We're getting rid of oil and gas, period. So I have a theory on why that I'll share with you in just a second, but is that

16:41 true? I mean, is that you kind of alluded to it with the Biden administration there? Yeah, you know, I mean, again, There's been discussion of a carbon tax doing something along those lines. I

16:53 put a belay has not supported that for this reason. One of the issues is the opponents of oil, I guess, will say, sure, we'll do a carbon tax, but we also want all these regulations to stay in.

17:05 I mean, if you could do a blank slate and decide, you know, you maybe could have a discussion about that, but that's not what's happening. And instead, it is, it very much feels like this to us

17:19 as well that, you know, there's just this singular focus on oil and gas at this point. And as I said, that's rattling through so many, so many new regulatory agencies that it's a real challenge

17:33 because, you know, there's only so many of us you get into areas that the other challenge we have is you have people who don't understand the industry. It's a very complicated industry and I'm not

17:45 saying I understand it but. you talk about your family, my family, I was, we are, one of the things I should also say about IPWA, we're strictly the upstream. So our guys just produce, but

17:55 then when I'm talking to my family, they say, well, how do you get it out? Well, that's a pipelines, that's a different group. And then you had to do retail. And at some point, my brother

18:03 finally just says, how the heck with it, I'm just paying too much for gas - Right - That's the lean, right - So it's a complicated patchwork of different, but if you make it so difficult for our

18:18 guys to produce and then move it out from these remote areas, it just starts to stack up. And at some point, that's gonna be a problem for all of us - Yeah, so I had an interesting discussion

18:30 'cause I've always kind of taken the tact of, we need to place our own solve beyond the podcast and I'll call out bad actors as I see 'em. And I get grief from the industry for that.

18:46 You know, I'm oil and gas, loud and proud, you know, all that good stuff. But I do think, and I say this time and time again, I say, hey, if we don't police our own, guess what, Washington

18:55 DC will do it. I've never had a pleasant experience with Washington DC, outside this one restaurant I ate out there. But, and I saw a Nationals game - Oh, there you go - So Anthony Rendon, who

19:06 used to play for the Nationals, he went to

19:10 Rice and anyways, a friend of mine. And so he hosted us for a game - Oh, wow - That was very pleasant - One of my favorite players, now he went to the Angels - I know - I know - Great guy - Is

19:20 that right - Yeah, just unbelievable - Oh, I agree - Unbelievable - Obviously one of my favorite players in, so anyways, I'm sorry - Oh, well, no, here's my Anthony Rendon story. So I got a

19:29 Rice, right? And the athletic director, who's now the athletic director at University of Texas, was the athletic director at Rice Christel Conte. He calls me Chuck, tomorrow's the end of the

19:40 fiscal year. Athletic department hadn't made their budget I need a contribution. and I go, Okay, Chris, here's my deal. You say a number and I'm gonna say yes or no. So don't ask for too much

19:54 'cause I may say no, but put your best foot forward one bite at this and Chris throws out a number and I go, Okay, Chris, I'll do that. But what you have to do is you have to make Anthony Rendon

20:06 my scholar athlete 'cause I have a scholarship over there with my ex-wife - Oh wow - And they always assign you a player. So I say, You gotta make Anthony And he goes, Don't chuck, that's great.

20:16 And the key to that is you get to go have dinner with the athlete. So anyway, about two weeks later, I'm at dinner with Anthony Rendon and we're sitting there talking. He's a great guy and all

20:26 this. And about two thirds of the way through dinner, Rendon just says, Yeah, I don't know. This is the 12th dinner that Del Conte's had me do

20:39 in the last two weeks. I called Del Conte the next morning. Well played Because yeah, yeah. Rindone's like 14 people scholar athlete this year. I'm like, well played. You're doing the Lord's

20:48 work. But, no, so where I was going with this is, so I kind of, I'll call out the industry. And I got, had a reach out from a, I'll say a prominent environmentalist, environmentalist lobbyist.

21:06 And just the reach out was, hey, can we talk? And the talk was kind of, hey, I don't want people to know we're talking and all that, but you seem like a reasonable guy Can we talk? And I was

21:14 like, hey, I'm getting in my car tomorrow and driving to Santa Fe, New Mexico. I'm on the road for 12 hours, knock yourself out. And we wound up talking for about three to four hours and

21:23 delightful person, great and all that. One of the things that came out of that talk that I didn't appreciate, the person said, you know, it's not actually the burning of the hydrocarbons because

21:36 at the end of the day, I couldn't deal with my children without my SUV. So I get it, I get there's a need. Fundamental problem we have is we just don't trust y'all. So our pipe herbally might be

21:50 a Little out there. We might draw the line at hurting you guys instead of how do we find it? And it's because we don't trust you we feel like you know X on hit hit hit Climate warming and stuff

22:02 right and I hadn't really thought of that and so I you know there may be some truth to that because I will say We haven't been the best actors. I mean so one of the things again We always say first

22:12 of all you need to be Good actors need to comply with the law Both at state and federal level our members in addition we talk about being good neighbors And one of the things that I love about our

22:26 members a lot of times they live in the states They live in and are operating only in those states where they they they work and so you know It's their home. It's it's what they do you talk about

22:37 Wyoming that you got families that live in Wyoming They understand that they're not going to do things that are going to number one, ruin the environment in Wyoming. And second of all, they know

22:49 those people. They know that they've lived there. They understand when companies, they can see them. It's not a company that comes in and leaves. So we have to do that. Look, we always have to

22:59 have good actors because I get that, I understand. Nobody, no industry is perfect, but we always have to stress to be good neighbors. And it happens a lot of times too when you're talking about

23:11 split estates, which really gets involved in the federal

23:17 lands. But you need to be able to places where it's private property and federal minerals underneath. Well, you can't even if the lease says you can go on there and produce, you gotta work with

23:28 the landowners. You have to be a good neighbor and do it right. And the companies that do survive those that don't are gonna have trouble. And so we need to continue that dialogue One of the things

23:41 we worked on. at IPAA is an orphan well-built. And we had a lot of our members say, Why are you getting involved in that? Well, it was important. Wells that had been abandoned, and we worked

23:52 with the environmental community. We worked with Democrats in Congress. We got additional dollars now that's always that give and take. Some people said, Yeah, this is a challenge for us, but

24:05 it's important to do that. And so we're gonna continue to talk about that. And we wanna have that dialogue Unfortunately, and we're probably not perfect on this, Chuck, you get into Washington.

24:15 One of the things I think has changed since I've been in Washington is now there's just two camps. And so I commend you for having a conversation as you're driving the Santa Fe to Mexico, but it's

24:26 important to have that dialogue. We wanna have that dialogue, but we find so often the environmental community doesn't wanna talk to us because then, just with the guy said, I don't wanna

24:36 publicize this. I don't want people to know we're working with you So we've got it. are work cut out for us, but you know, I'm very confident in our members and the way they are good neighbors in

24:50 the States around. Because my political leanings are very much a libertarian. I mean, I read Free to Choose by Milton Friedman early on, can change my life. I actually made it through John Galt's

25:06 whole speech. Oh wow. Wow. I mean, I made it through the law It was painful. It took a long time, but I made it through the whole speech. God bless Rand on that one. But so I've been very much

25:18 the libertarian and despite the fact that I actually believe a lot of my beliefs are moral in nature. I mean, I truly believe markets, punish bad behavior, worse than governments, promoting good

25:32 behavior does, etc. I will say this, and this is why I've never been involved in politics and will never I actually think you have. to have consensus so that everybody buys in. So I may believe X,

25:46 you believe Y, it's more important for us to agree to Z than it is for me to get on Y. Just 'cause if we don't all buy into the system, it doesn't hold up. And that's my worry about the two party

26:02 thing and it goes back to George Washington's farewell address, avoid factions 'cause I mean, half the world doesn't believe the other half. So when 2016 was Russian interference in our election

26:17 and 2020 was a fraudulent election and it's, we didn't really change much in between guys. So, you know, yeah - No, we're always, first of all, I agree. Again, we talked about Washington and

26:30 its challenge. I talked to my kids about this. There used to be, I think, more dialogue between the parties, discussion of trying to

26:39 And I will also say this, the vast majority, I understand again, I come from a big family and most of them are in Colorado and say, I couldn't, I hate Washington, I don't wanna be there. The

26:49 vast majority of people, Republican and Democrat, come to Congress, come there to do the right thing, represent their constituents. But anymore you get into this issue of, it's not just that you

27:00 have a political difference that it's good and evil. And anytime you're talking about good and evil, that's a really dangerous spot to be. So, we do need to come together on consensus. We do need

27:14 to find answers. And speaking as a trade association, one of the things our leadership always talks about is reaching out to both sides, Democrats, Republicans, we wanna get out there, are we

27:26 perfect at it? No, but we hope that there can be a dialogue. It's what I was talking about energy policy rather than even oil and natural gas We represent oil and natural gas producers, but you're

27:36 going to have to have a thoughtful approach to how the country is going to move from here to there. And we think oil and actual gas are going to be a key part of that for many years to come. I mean,

27:49 I always say that energy is so important that bad energy policy, either way, leads to deaths. Yeah. I mean, too expensive energy, bad, not looking after the environment, bad So

28:04 to that end, one of the things I found and kind of stick with me on this, but it's really true if you go do this. If you pull up BLM websites, listen to the rhetoric, if you pull up QAnon and

28:19 stuff, if you took the names off, you almost can't tell a difference between the rhetoric. And it all comes from this, and I'm not justifying either side, I'm not defending it, but it all comes

28:31 from this. They're just disassociated from the American dream. Right. They feel like America's passed them by. and they're looking for someone to blame on it. And maybe they're rightful people to

28:42 blame on it, but that's why I always say, we really aren't that different. If we could just somehow get rid of the narrative that the only way to show that you care about something is a big

28:56 government program, I think we could have a lot more healthy discussions. 'Cause I don't mind somebody saying, Yeah, you're an idiot, markets won't fix that. Oh, okay. I hate when somebody

29:06 says, Well, you're anti that because you don't want a big government program. And so I think energy needs to be at the forefront of that 'cause it really is important. 'Cause if we can transition

29:18 on five trillion instead of 50 trillion, imagine what we could do with that 45 trillion instead of wasting it and just feels like we're wasting it. Well, again, energy is so important. And you

29:31 saw it here in Texas when during the storms two years ago, It impacts so much of everybody's life. And again, we believe one of the things is you also look at what our members do. When you're

29:47 talking about production, it's not just at the wellhead, it also helps communities, it also helps state budgets, it helps jobs, economy, obviously. One of the things, again, that our members

29:59 really wanna do, you know, I think is you, it is really the American dream You can have my nephew works in the, doesn't have a college degree, went into the field at 18. He is now a field

30:14 manager making probably more than I am. But that's good, that's great, that's what you want. And so, you know, it really is an industry that's so dynamic if you will let it be dynamic. And if

30:26 you have, unfortunately, as you said, you have the long arm of the federal government getting involved. And again, I wanna stress check, Chuck, I know you're saying the same thing. There are

30:36 baseline you've got to protect. environment. You've got to be careful when you're talking about methane or, you know, how you're going to do all these things, but we can do it. The industry can

30:45 do it. The industry shown it can do it. One of my favorite things is the footprints that hydraulic fracturing has, the size of well paths have just gotten smaller and smaller. And now we're used

30:57 to have 10, one spot you can go 10 time. The impact on the environment's just gotten smaller that way, and it's going to continue. These guys, our members, small members are amazing at finding

31:10 innovative solutions. And so, of course, you need to work with your federal regulators. You need to work with your state regulators. But we think there's a much better way to do it than a, you

31:21 know, just a heavy hand of saying, no, you can't do it anymore. That, that, I believe, is a real danger for the country, because you don't have a solution. You take oil and gas out of the

31:32 picture, you say, Okay, where are you gonna go next? And I've had some friends in Washington Environmental. and say, Well, we don't have that answer. We just don't want you there and we'll

31:42 figure that later. And I said, Man, you're playing, you're playing, you know, rolling the dice with the economy at that point. That's, I don't think we have to do that. Yeah. Okay. So we're

31:52 six months into your administration. What are the things you want to accomplish? What's kind of on your wish list of, you know, top two or three things? Yeah. I think, so I think really that

32:04 our goal number one, you know, we went through some tough times. The pandemic was hard on the industry, hard on small producers. So as a trade association. First of all, yeah, I got it. It

32:14 really is. So, you know, that's one of our goals to have a healthy dynamic voice for independent producers in Washington is the first thing, we're well on our way to doing that. Second of all,

32:26 we do want to work on, you know, bringing some smart policies. And I think we're again talking in a bipartisan fashion to to a policy maker. to make sure you don't

32:44 make decisions that will are probably a little dramatic to say, but are irreversible. You make decisions, policy decisions that drive small producers out. That's a mistake for so many different

32:54 issues. And this is not taking a shot at the major producers. It's such a dynamic industry. Independent producers push the majors to do better, to do different things The majors obviously have a

33:06 worldwide scope, but if you don't have that independent industry, for example, in the offshore, if you don't have independent operators operating in the offshore, that causes a ripple effect that

33:18 isn't good for anything. You talk about Milton Freeman, you talk about markets, you talk about dynamic markets, that's one where the independent producers are really key to that. So we wanna make

33:27 sure that that voice is still heard, because I think one of the goals of the tractors of, well, I guess they know that. So they say, we want to take out what they call the low hanging fruit, the

33:41 smaller operators. Okay, marginal wells, we don't need those. We don't need this, but if you look at it cumulatively, it has a huge impact. So that's our goal is to continue to make sure we

33:52 have a voice and a place at the table for our members. Yeah, it's really interesting to back up your point when, you know, so George Mitchell goes and figures out how to frack the Barnett. We

34:04 have the revolution in natural gas I remember in 2008 drilling a horizontal well and it was an oil well and that was like the kiss of death. Oh my God, 1000 barrels a day, but two days later it'll

34:16 be. But eventually we figure out the technology so that we can apply modern fracks to the oil business and lo and behold, we're off to the races. If you look at the initial production rates from

34:28 wells and we'll just say the Permian Basin, whatever, you know, they're up 30, 40. each year going 2014, on and on and on. And they're up in kind of 17 and 18, 20. What was really interesting

34:47 about that data is if you took out Exxon and Chevron Wells in the Permian Basin, and I may be off a year or two, but 2017, 2018, actually the Wells Plateau. And the whole point is all of that

35:02 growth and development you saw was not Exxon and Chevron developing it, it was your guys. Right? I mean, they were the ones out there tinkering 'cause it was an engineer's playground. 'Cause

35:17 there was no, I mean, I love engineers, although you know what one of my favorite jokes is, there was an engineering railroad bubble in the England in the 1850s. At one point, someone calculated

35:31 that All of the railroads. laid in England for all those projects to get their money back. Everyone on that island had to ride a railroad 22 hours a day. So there was this big huge bubble. And one

35:44 of the Rothschilds is reported as saying, there are three paths to ruin. Wine, women, and engineers. The first two are more fun. The last one, the most certain. I kid engineers I love. But no,

35:60 I mean, there was a ton of - I mean, like the original thesis on fracking was you take a big chunk of sand and you cut a path through the rock, right? Well, 100 mesh, which is basically talcum

36:13 powder wound up working a lot better. And that was an engineer going, hey, let's try this. See what happens? We'll measure. OK, we'll try this again. And so a lot of that work was done by your

36:24 guys and not the big guys. They stole, which is fine Well, I don't, again, I just want to stress. You know, again, independent producers have the ability to do a lot of different things and

36:39 look at different issues. Again, it's the industry's dynamic. And so we need the majors, we need all of these

36:47 companies coming together. And it's very exciting for the United States. I think that's the other frustration is at a time when we should really be celebrating the Renaissance, the Revolution, and

36:59 not sitting on our heels, continuing to move forward you now get into the fights of people just trying to

37:08 run you out of business. And that's, again, we can talk, you know, we could talk for hours, but that's, talk to Europe about what's going on. You know, you need a stable energy system and

37:20 we're blessed in the United States to have oil and natural gas and the ability to get it out and to move it. And that's good for everybody I always say it's important to have the United States as an

37:31 energy superpower. just to level those markets across the world. And you talked about earlier, rather than going out, unfortunately, the president did it to Venezuela, to unstable actors, we

37:43 have it right here. Let's figure that out. And let's answer some of those questions. Let's not do away with it. So that's our thought, that's my thought - Well, and Saudi Aramco is actually a

37:54 very well-run company, but just given the nature of the oil they produce, it is dirtier than sweet crude coming out of West Texas, sir. It just is. And so the thought that we're still gonna use

38:09 gasoline and all the products from crude, and we'll take it from there, but we won't take it from West Texas, doesn't make a lot of sense. It's, that's still not my biggest beef. My biggest

38:20 energy beef is we actually import LNG in Massachusetts I mean, this is LNG that could help Europe

38:32 Putin, we've taken Russian LNG in the past, but it wasn't that much. Basically, we're taking it from Trinidad, right? And we could be sending that Europe, helping out Europe. Instead, we are

38:44 importing LNG there. And how far is Massachusetts from the largest gas field in the United States? I mean, the Appalachian. I bet Toby Rice could build a pipeline to Massachusetts if we want. And

39:00 you say, Okay, well, we don't want pipelines, they're dirty, they leak, all that. That's great. Well, unfortunately, given the dynamics, we've had days this winter where 35 of the heating

39:13 in Massachusetts is done by heating oil. And that's dirty nasty stuff. I'm not trying to throw a stone at heating oil, but at the end of the day. So it's stuff like that that you just wish you

39:25 could sit there and talk, Okay, can we at least build one pipeline? Yeah. Well, you know, again, and

39:31 this is electric. vehicles. I have a good friend who is very proud owns a Tesla. But the issue that comes in it is he's plugging that in at night from the utility in the DC area which is either has

39:47 coal or natural gas power fired right. So that may make you feel good and I'm not taking a shot at Tesla. It's a beautiful car. He took me to ride with. But that's not solving this issue if that's

40:03 what you want to do is you're just making yourself feel good. It reminded me of Massachusetts again. You say, well, we don't want the pipes because we don't want to do but you're then bringing in

40:10 LNG tankers into Boston Harbor from Russia from Trinidad from elsewhere. There's better answers to that. So that's again, I sound like a broken record but that's where you need to have an energy

40:21 policy, a coherent policy of thinking this through. And that's a challenge I think that we all face still. Yeah. So what's something that. members of the audience could do to help on that front.

40:36 Make your life easier. Do you kind of have a wish list for folks - Well, you know, again, we deal with our members a lot, but I think for members of the audience, understand that these decisions

40:49 that are - And actually the audience is mostly oil and gas folks, except for the big environmentalist. He or she claims to watch periodically - Well, that's good, because it would be the same

40:59 issue, which is to always watch when there's regulatory actions that are happening. And I know this sounds like it's inside baseball, but you're talking about the SEC getting involved in regulating

41:14 oil and natural gas. You're talking about those things aren't, they'd come with a cost. And so I'm not saying you have to read the trade press and look through and see that oil and gas companies

41:25 will, but ask questions of policymakers. How are you ask members of your members of Congress, Republican and Democrat, what is your solution to solve this issue? And I will tell you Chuck, our

41:40 answer is never drill, baby drill. That gets another side where it's, you know, that's nothing we've talked about, but have a smart policy because unfortunately, I think many of the

41:53 environmentalists and those on the left, there isn't an answer It is simply we don't want you to operate and we'll deal with the other issues later. And you talked about that, you're then talking

42:04 about people's lives, not my livelihood, but you're talking about people living surviving. I mean, you need to have a stable energy source to do everything that we

42:17 do. And sometimes I don't think those solutions are thought through. It's just simply, I don't want you. I don't want that And that gets to be a really dangerous proposition If I could be so bold

42:29 to add to that one suggestion is, I think you're right, hey question your policy makers, why? A great question I've found that might be slightly more effective is ask what the second order effects

42:46 are. You know, hey, if we do this, are we gonna do that? And one real quick, you figure out whether your policy maker actually understands the issue But one of the things I've done since sitting

42:59 in the seat the last couple of years is I've spent a lot of time studying the psychological research on how you change someone's mind. And what's interesting about that is they're basically three

43:12 ways that are deemed effective. One is just ask questions. That's why the Socratic method is such an effective teaching method, 'cause you're not denying anyone's position, you're just saying,

43:22 okay, well, what about this? So that's effective too, you can just scare people.

43:28 I don't think you should do that. I mean that that should be off the table three You can make the people laugh and the key to that is you're making them laugh not yourself laugh Because I think we

43:39 fall in the energy business. We make ourselves laugh all the time. It's the echo chamber what is actually the least effective way of changing someone's mind is with reason and facts because you're

43:52 basically not accepting their premise and you've already started with a with

43:57 a fight on that front and so No, you know, I think it's a great that's a great addition to what I was saying I mean, I think you have to do that. What's the second dairy effect? What happens?

44:08 One of the things I talked a lot about We talked about President Obama And in a give him credit from the public I mean from the selling this He was really good at saying Basically, you know snap your

44:22 fingers and you're gonna be able to move from oil natural gas to renewables There's gonna be no pain. there's gonna be no, it'll just, and I often again tell people, well, who wouldn't, okay,

44:32 that makes sense if that's easy. You just snap your finger - I've said the single most effective thing, the environmental movement has done from them. Their side is they've convinced people of that

44:42 fact - Yeah - That renewables could replace it if not for big bad oil companies - Yeah - And so again, that's the challenge, is if that's the thought, and so you get into, any energy is gonna have

44:58 energy producing, is gonna have side effects, you've gotta deal with that. What are you gonna do in our world? How are you gonna address methane? How are you gonna address a lot of issues? But

45:08 in the renewable side, you get into rare earth minerals, and what are you gonna do about batteries? And what are you gonna do about windmills - Slave labor in China - When China's building it. So

45:18 there's always, it's not just an easy, if it were easy, it'd be done. That's just the way it is And so again, We just want to be part of that conversation and have a discussion because we think

45:31 it's vital that the United States continue to have a dynamic oil in that your gas industry. It's always one of those crazy things that oil and gas companies are so incredibly greedy and all they

45:42 want's money, but renewables are so much cheaper. Why aren't they just doing that? Yeah. You know, it's always, you get the perplexed look. You know, it's a really good point. Your question

45:53 of the follow on is exactly that's what I'm talking about It's just kind of, you know, what's, and you can be pleasant when you ask the second level of facts. But, well, cool. How do people

46:04 reach all? So we, the easiest way is our website, which is wwwipaaorg.

46:11 Go there. You can see we have a ton of information. We also, IPAA heads up a education

46:20 communications thing called energy and depth and it's again wwwenergyanddepthorg.

46:27 there's a ton of information on there that I would encourage your listeners to go look at because it talks about the real data of what's happening, the impact on people's lives, and what's being

46:39 done at the federal level, some good, some bad, so we're happy to do that. Again, always feel free to reach out to us 'cause we're happy to answer any questions and really appreciate your giving

46:53 us the opportunity to have a chat today - Sure, I've got one story I'll kind of end with 'cause I find this interesting - I hope our website works -

47:04 Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Sorry, go ahead - Exactly. So this is interesting 'cause my three kids have lived the greatest life of any three kids on the planet. I want to come back as one

47:14 of my kids, right? And anyway, if you ask them tomorrow, hey, would you get rid of hydrocrumbs? Oh yeah, dad, my joke is always, hey, I know how you can do that, and they go, Wow, okay,

47:25 just stop using it. If you stop using it, they'll all go out of business. But anyway, so

47:31 we, I have a tendency to think we as an industry are way more defeated than we actually are. And here's my proof about that. I opened a series of just Zoom rooms this summer and said, hey, if

47:46 you're young and you went into energy, come get on the Zoom call. If you didn't go into energy, come get on the Zoom call and let's just chat. We're not recording anything I'm sitting in a podcast.

47:57 I'm just curious. And so I did about 10 of those and I probably all told had 100 people that were chatting. And I heard one story that I think bears repeating 'cause it's really good stuff. So I

48:09 had a call it a 24 year old engineer from Canada. And the engineer came on and said, you know what? Let me tell you my story. When I was at university, my freshman, sophomore and junior year, I

48:24 went.

48:31 to a presentation by a large oil and gas company. It was entitled Producing Oil and Gas, and it was an old white guy that came and talked about it. About 10 people showed up for the presentation.

48:38 By the time it was done, three people were left, and all. My senior year, they sent a 27-year-old engineer who grew up in India, and the presentation was entitled, utilizing AI to image the

48:56 subsurface.

48:57 200 people show up to it. By the end of his talk, there were 400 people in the room 'cause everybody's texting their friends, get over here. The guy's opening line of the talk was something to the

49:07 effect of, Holy shit, I've never talked to this many people before, and he's running around, he's just bouncing around, and where in previous years, freshmen, sophomore, and junior year, that

49:18 large independent maybe hired one engineer, they wind up hiring 12 engineers from that year's class. I just kind of tell that story because if anybody's watching and they're thinking we're defeated

49:29 and we've lost the battle, it doesn't take a whole lot of marketing pizzazz to be able to talk to people and engage on them because they're not that far gone. No, I think it's one of the things we

49:41 always talk about is the incredible technology that is out there. And, you know, and look, we have to do that. We've got to get young people involved I have two kids who have, they understand

49:53 what I do, they understand what pays the bills. But it's this constant drum beat of, you want to get out of that, you want to get out of that. So, you know, the technology is amazing. The

50:05 industry is amazing. But we've got to do a better job of telling the story. And we need, we also, you know, the diversity, always looking for ways to do that, bringing more females in,

50:15 addressing a lot of those issues because it's a great industry an important industry and I think that's the key. It's an important industry that can really benefit not only your life, but other

50:26 people's lives as well. But we got

50:30 to do a better job of telling the story. If we end up, I always saying I'm dating myself, but if it becomes Jed Clamp, a shoot and a crude that comes bubbling up, you've got a problem. If you

50:41 can have a conversation about a whole variety of issues in

50:46 a reasonable manner and talk about the modern technology, I talked about reducing the footprint in states like Wyoming, that's huge That's exciting and that's what we need to do is continue to talk

50:57 about the exciting nature of what the industry that we represent at IPAA - 'Cause quite frankly, that knowledge base in the energy business one, if we're gonna scale anything in transition,

51:09 renewables, et cetera, you got to look to the energy industry - Absolutely - 'Cause they've done it number one, number two, the scaling down and taking care of the environment and the smaller

51:20 footprint, mining's gonna have to do that rare earth minerals to do all this. We talked yesterday on the BDE show. One fifth of China's land is actually polluted because of mining. So we are gonna

51:37 have to all engage on this discussion. And hopefully the war with Ukraine, miserable, horrible, don't wanna defend it, but at least hopefully it's put into the spotlight that, hey guys, we

51:50 gotta be thoughtful - We have to be thoughtful And we couldn't agree more. The war is awful, but it shows you that this is real world. This is what's happening. And if you don't have a thoughtful

52:04 energy policy, don't think this through, you can get yourself into

52:15 a huge problem very quickly - Well said, Don, I'm kidding - No worries - Dan, thanks for coming on - All right, check, thanks very much.