Chuck Yates Needs A Job

0:00 Hey, Digital Wildcat is Nimble Fatty here. I'm talking today about the Mark, the Minerals and Royalties Conference. April 14th and 15th at the Posto Hotel. Colin's gonna be up there as part of a

0:13 panel talking about AI. It's gonna be really cool. It's the best party. It's the best minerals conference. We'd love to have you guys there. So if you go to mineralsconferencecom to sign up and

0:25 you use promo code DW2025, they'll give you a hundred bucks off Tom Nimble Fatty sent you

0:56 Adam, I started my podcast in October of 2020 and I call these guys at Digital Wildcatters and I'm, Hey, I'm going to do this podcast, what's going to be about, don't know, but we're in a

1:11 private equity energy fund, so it'll be a lot of energy. They were an energy-based media company, so they were like, Great. After about three or four months, every time I would turn in a podcast,

1:23 I got two questions that was one, How long is this one? and number two, Did somebody cry?

1:31 I mean, if someone's crying, it sounds like it's a success, right? I think, and I told Colin today, I think this isI'm going to cry podcast today, so. I'll be gentle, man. I promise. I

1:45 appreciate it. Well, dude, you're cool to come on. The backdrop of the story, because this is, I think, officially our first time to meet is. Yeah. My girlfriend's son's best friend is your

1:58 uncle. No, I, no, he's my brother. Okay. I'm his uncle, your kid's uncle. We should draw this out, this can get complicated. Exactly. But what is it? Wait, it's like, what, two degrees

2:14 of separation. But when you, people from Houston, I'm originally from Houston, it's all the same. Yeah, well, we all know each other So anyway, the interesting part of your story, 'cause you

2:30 sent me a podcast you've been on, I watched a little bit about it, it was just betrayal. So tell me your story, 'cause I thought it was, I thought it was pretty powerful.

2:42 Yeah, so I know we don't have a time limit. Maybe this could be your four hour podcast. No, this will not be four hours. I have a flight later today, even stuff but so I'm. I'm a therapist and

2:56 I specialize in men's issues, betrayal trauma and sex addiction. So I guess you could say sessions are never really that boring for sure. There's always something interesting happening and I deal

3:11 with some really deep, deep, heavy stuff, some of the people's deepest secrets and deepest shame and a lot of skeletons in the closet And from that work, I wrote a book, which I have a copy over

3:28 there, but I wrote a book calledA Man's Guide to Partner Betrayal. And what I was discovering is that so many men have been cheated on by their partners. And there's nothing out there really to

3:42 help men navigate this. If you look at the narratives of all the books, most of the podcasts out there in the the websites, all these things are all about the man being the cheater, and it's just

3:55 not true. I mean, I think they estimate 30 of women are cheated on in a committed relationship or marriage, and they estimate 18 for men. In my practice, it's much higher than that. I think men

4:11 just don't talk about this kind of stuff, and so that was coming up for me a lot And then also, my ex-wife had an affair over 13 years ago, and when I was on that journey, there was nothing out

4:25 there to help me, and all the books talked about, it was the wrong pronouns, right? And so I kind of just decided like, maybe this is my mission to help men heal and to actually start to bring

4:38 this to light and talk about it that my favorite saying I'd say is men get cheated on too So that's kind of how I got where I'm at now.

4:49 And that's why we're talking, I guess. We can talk about other things too, like Houston sports or whatever you want, but yeah. Yeah,

5:01 one of the things that I've done, and you've seen some on the podcast was when I started it, I thought I was gonna be a 13 year old boy telling poopy jokes just 'cause that was my sense of humor.

5:13 And October of 2020 may have been one of the lowest points, if not the lowest point in the oil and gas business oil and April it hit minus 37, potentially upwards of half of the industry had gotten

5:27 fired. And so, you know, early days of the podcast, I had my best friend fish on and we both talked about getting fired. I had my priest on to talk about all the therapy I'd gone through, I'd

5:41 gotten a divorce back in,

5:47 in 2017, and my priest had really babysat me through that. And I think one of the things I found was,

5:55 there's really something to me to, when you're willing to share something, be vulnerable. And somebody else says to you, Hey, man, me too. I went through it too. And ultimately, at the end of

6:09 the day, that's almost as therapeutic as anything on the planet can be Yeah, it's a little percent. Yeah, so when you're gone through that kind of with the ex-wife, tell me your journey. Did you

6:25 share with a friend? Did you have a therapist? Priest, how did you do it? That's a great question. I want to back up though real quick to what you were just hitting on. I think it's so important

6:36 that men, I'm gonna stereotype here, but it's a fair stereotype. then we struggle with vulnerability, right? And then we're just kind of more like, yeah, yeah, you got this, you'll be okay.

6:50 We'll pat on the back kind of thing. And it's in and through that vulnerability that we get to heal, that you are, like what you were alluding to is, is when, for me, and I'll get to my story,

7:04 is when I was witness by other men, and other men kind of held me and they saw me and they had empathy for me,

7:18 that was one of the most amazing, freeing experiences on my journey. But, like, on my journey, like, there wasn't anything out there, Chuck. They're, like, actually, I've been told, in the

7:30 therapy world, by other therapists and list serves and stuff, that this is the only, in the first book out there, written for men by a man that helps them navigate this. It's not talked about

7:43 it's, it's a, I just had a talk earlier today with another therapist who's kind of well known in the therapy world. And he was saying, I have to stick, I have to stick to this and make this more

7:53 relevant and make it more of a conversation 'cause we're not talking about it. Just like we don't really talk about men and stress and anxiety and things like that 'cause men don't talk about those

8:06 things. But you know, for me, you know, my ex-wife, we went to a couple of therapists. It just never worked I felt like the therapist, they were always like, what did you do, sir? And what

8:16 was your part? And how did you not, you know, they were like, they were supporting the myth or what the ego tells most men is like, Man, I'm not enough, or I didn't step up. And that's just

8:27 really not true for any of this kind of work. And so I had a men's group through the mankind project. I think you've ever heard of that. Um, that's a nonprofit. It's been around over 30 years.

8:40 And so I kind of, I was lucky, I already had a band of brothers. I had a group of men that I was meeting with like weekly and man, they saved me. They, they listened to me over and over again,

8:52 probably during the same story and the same pain, but it was through that being witnessed that I was able to heal. And I did a lot of my own research and I was starting to become a therapist at that

9:04 time. So that's the short version. Yeah, you know, the interesting thing that happened to me during kind of my process, wife and I get get separated and fortunately, one of my best friends on

9:21 the planet is also my priest. I go to an Episcopal church. So I think they're called priests. I'm a Methodist and I tell him that all the time. I'm a Methodist. I happen to go to your church.

9:35 But one of the things Patrick did, besides answering the phone call at 3 am, besides tending to religious needs, is he actually put together a group of us, I think there were seven guys in the

9:53 group that were all going through something. And he had us meeting every Tuesday night, almost similar to what you're talking about And we were stepping through some coursework that Brene Brown had

10:07 put together because he was getting certified to teach Brene Brown's stuff. But we had one night where literally everybody kind of gotten comfortable with each other and shared the trauma we were

10:21 going through. I'm going through my divorce. Another guy had lost his job, didn't know what he was gonna do. Another guy going through a divorce another guy who was dying of terminal cancer

10:35 And that went four hours one night. Everybody said it wasn't a dry eye in the house. And yeah, I mean, just, that was the night that I think I stole this line from someone. I was not the creator,

10:51 but shame really does hate words. I mean,

10:57 to the extent you can talk about your shame and actually share it, one of the things is, once you're done saying it, it just doesn't feel as bad as it did. Yeah, actually, I got to tell you, I

11:10 love that you saw that and you just said that and brought that up. I tell my clients a lot. Like the thing with shame is, it's unspeakable. And we can't speak of something, it doesn't get a

11:24 chance to be healed. It doesn't get a chance to put the light on it, right? And what most men don't realize is that once they say that, one thing that they're holding onto, that limiting belief,

11:39 that negative thought, like you experienced, I've experienced it many times in my life, it's like it's gone. Like it just lifts off and it vanishes, you know? And I think that's what happens to

11:52 men when they get cheated on is those stereotypes that mail how we're supposed to be resilient and just buck up, right? That just doesn't work, ma'am. Yeah, you know, the other thing I kind of

12:08 felt sort of in that moment and have tried to foster is if you think you could maybe tell someone, there is a 99 chance you can tell that person. And don't doubt yourself, you're a pretty smart

12:31 person, your business partner, Mike, your best friend, fish, if you think you can share with them, 99 chance you can, and probably 100 chance they say, yeah, me too, I'm going through

12:46 something like that too. Yeah, and you know, even if they're not. What you've done is you've created a bond Right, you have shown your heart to someone who's a buddy. And now all of a sudden

13:00 you're going to have such a deeper connection with that guy. And the other part is, is you get to actually get to know each other. And even if that man hasn't experienced what you're sharing, I

13:13 guarantee you that he's going to be better for it Like you were saying, you're going to touch his heart, and you're also going to be a gift for him. right? Because you might give perspective to

13:25 what he might be going through in another way in his life. And that's the part is like, again, I think I said, but like society tells men or views men that were more just less vulnerable. And

13:38 when we keep getting that story told over and over again, it creates silence and isolation. Super unhealthy for everyone Yeah, you know, in that night when kind of all of us were sharing what we

13:55 were going through, the guy going through cancer when he talked about not being able to see a moment of his child's life, I want everyone who ever listens to this to know that that moment of

14:11 vulnerability, I did not see weakness. I saw strength. I mean, I saw that was a man's freaking man to be able to fess up in front of all of us, that he cries at night. 'cause he's not gonna see

14:24 his daughter do her dance or her recital or graduate from high school or whatever the case may be. And so I. No, I, yeah, I wrote a blog article about men and crying and I basically say that I

14:41 think, I think the bravest being a man can do is to cry in front of others and to be vulnerable. And not only is it brave, it gives you a chance to be an authentic leader and a teacher and a human

14:57 as we all cry. So it's, yeah, it's super powerful. That had to be gut wrenching for you guys to sit through that with that man.

15:08 It, yeah, it really was. And I wound up driving him home that night and we spent another hour talking in his driveway And it really was, and I think. He wound up passing away about seven, eight

15:23 weeks later. And when they sang Danny Boy at his funeral, bald my eyes out in front of everyone at the church. It's interesting because the story of George Washington crossing the Delaware is, Hey,

15:42 we're rebelling against the British. No charge. Yeah, charge, no taxation Supposedly the true story is George Washington sat down with his men and said, Okay, guys, I want you to go home to

15:56 your family. We've lost. We can't win this. I'm getting on the boat. I'm gonna sail across. I'm gonna attack them. I'm gonna be killed. That'll keep you guys safe because they will have gotten

16:13 me. And you tried and I love all you guys And supposedly everybody said, No, we're in. They all jumped in the boat and obviously history. They crossed the Delaware and they wound up winning, but

16:26 it was not a rah rah, I'm a man. It was supposedly a vulnerable moment of we've lost. I'm gonna go do this. You don't have to join me, go home. I don't know Chuck, I mean, it sounds like rah

16:40 rah. He's a man, he's a human. Like, you know, that's another thing you just brought up and inadvertently is the idea of surrendering, right? And people think men were taught you surrender your

16:55 weak. I call BS. I think we surrender when we have the wisdom. We surrender when our ego's not in the way. We surrender when we're like, hey, I need help. I can't do this alone. Or hey, I

17:10 need to regroup I mean, surrender takes bravery and it takes wisdom. Doesn't mean you're weak or you're a loser. It means you're actually pretty brave and strong and it's self-aware. So I never

17:26 knew that story about George. I'm like, that's a good story. I could see, right? Like he was authentic and vulnerable. And he probably because of that, they were able to win, win that battle,

17:38 you know? Other, right? Yeah, you connect anything in life. When we connect at a heart level, there's a connection, right? Like we have to be connected to other people We need that kind of

17:51 interaction. And like I hate what technology's done today with although we're using it right now, but you know, like I drive, I drove by a high school here in Salt Lake City one day around lunch

18:04 and I was just, I was struck, there was probably like about 15 kids standing at the street corner all with each other. I thought they were hanging out. And as I've pulled all the way up, all of

18:14 them were like this on their phone. Not a single one was talking. Like, we've lost the ability to be vulnerable. We've lost the ability to see each other. And we can't do that. We don't have

18:25 compassion for our fellow man or our fellow woman. And that's what this works also about, the betrayal work. It's like, it's being in your heart, owning the pain and owning the gain that comes

18:39 from this work. You know, I think there's a, I love that point I love you talking about technology, and I rarely find it appropriate to quote Mike Tyson in moments like this. Mike had any quotes,

18:57 give a drop it on me, please. So he actually said the problem with social media is when you say something, you can't get punched in the face. And as funny as that sounds and as Mike Tyson as it

19:14 sounds, It's true, I mean, sending a text, you're not staring someone in the eyes, you're not considering them human, you're not being kind, potentially, and it allows us to be two steps,

19:32 three steps, five steps removed from the other person and not have the connection you're talking about. Yep, 100.

19:41 Wow, and I have a whole new respect for Mike Tyson. That's pretty good. One last Tyson story. Oh, please. So, who's the guy? Seth McFarland, the - Yeah, yeah, from, yeah, yeah. I forget

19:57 the name of it. Family guy. Family guy, you know, but he's done tons of it. He's hilarious. So he's really funny. He was the man of the hour of one of the comedy central roasts, and Mike Tyson

20:10 got up there, And the audience did not laugh at this, but I think this may be one of the single funniest things ever said, Tyson got up there and said, Seth, I enjoy your work. I just want you

20:21 to know that I, too, spent all summer studying the classics. I read multiple things of Greek mythology, and I, too, have been inspired by Homer. And, you know, obviously alluding that you

20:36 ripped off Homer Simpson the whole time I thought that was one of the greatest jokes ever written, but nobody left, so. So, in terms of working with men, you know,

20:49 there seems to be a big, huge line between people that will never pick up the phone and call you, and then people that actually pick up the phone and show up and take a meeting and tell you what

21:03 they're going through. Is there a way, something you've seen, something you think about on and I'm using call you as a euphemism for just talking, asking

21:18 for help. Any advice for men in terms of how to do that?

21:25 Google, it's

21:28 like often in life the easiest things are the hardest things to do.

21:34 Actually, it's interesting you just said that because I just had this realization listening to that question is like when I was starting my practice and like I felt like so many of the guys that

21:46 would come to me because like I only work with men in my practice and so many of them were like yeah my girlfriend said I had to do this or I used to have a lot of guys, oh my wife found you online

21:58 and said I had to call you and meet with you. I used to get that if I maybe have and actually what I'm thinking is like the last couple years. I don't think I get that as much anymore.

22:11 I think there is this slight revolution happening.

22:18 I don't want to get into politics. I do want to say this, though. I think toxic masculinity has had a resurgence. I think it's super dangerous in our world. And I think a lot of men are

22:31 struggling with that or noticing that. And I think that that's not what most men today want to be. And so I'm seeing more men reaching out I have so many guys that find me and say, oh, I've been

22:43 watching this guy on the podcast and you came up, right? Or I was googling my issue and I saw your website, right? I think men are starting to become more and more self-aware. I think men are

22:54 getting tired of being put in a box, being stereotyped. I think that stuff's shifting. I think though the toxic masculinity is fighting really hard for itself. but I don't think it has a place in

23:09 our society, our world, or in healing anyone or anything. Yeah, and I'll keep the non-political, political talk going for

23:22 just a second as I argue, I think potentially the pendulum swung so far, 'cause I agree with you, toxic masculinity is bad, but there are certain traits of being a man that are good and should be

23:38 celebrated and are important. And so I think we probably swung the pendulum too far one way, and now part of the reason you're seeing what you're seeing is it's okay if I come in and talk about this

23:58 because being a man is important. Yeah, and you bring up a great point, There are some characteristics. or stereotypes of men and masculinity. You know, like, yeah, if no one's gonna enter my

24:14 house, I'm gonna step up, I'm gonna protect my wife, right? Like, there's certain things I'm still gonna always do. I

24:22 think what's happening slowly, and I see it more and more is that men are learning that they can also be emotional, that they can also be vulnerable That, you know, listen, we all have masculine

24:36 and feminine characters, right? There's just what? One chromosome difference. So, like, imagine if we're all able to be more balanced in who we are and how we show up in the world. Like, I

24:48 wonder how much nicer and better and safer the world would be if men were showing up in that kind of capacity, versus, you know, one extreme, if you will But yeah, men are reaching out, I think,

25:03 to me, more and more because men are in pain. And I think men are realizing that that's not a way to live. And being manly and macho does not mean you have to be in pain, period. Yeah,

25:17 interesting. So is, and I'm sure the answer is everything's unique, but is there a typical arc that potentially patients go through? They show up, hey, I just walked in on my wife, girlfriend,

25:34 cheating on me. Is there kind of an arc they go through? Or do you see any kind of patterns there?

25:43 Good question. I wouldn't say, I mean, the one pattern I do see is they just get to a place where the pain is unbearable. But it's like actually making me realize like, I get a lot of men where

25:58 they are in shock and they're confused. And how can my partner have cheated on me? And I get a lot of those guys, like the beginning part of the journey. And then I have a big group of guys that

26:10 are like, yeah, this happened 10 years ago, or five years ago, where I just stumbled upon old texts from 2017, and it just brought it all back, and I realized I didn't do the work on it, right?

26:24 And so I'm kind of getting those two groups, seems to be what is pretty interesting. I think men, when they're in the middle of that journey, they don't know where they're at, or where they're

26:34 going till they get there. And then I think that's the reassessment. So, but there's no set pattern

26:47 kind of thing. Yeah, that's interesting. Are there attributes or activities, or kind of thoughts or certain types of things you've found in terms of helping people through these situations.

27:03 through the journey. Well, actually, that's one of the many catalysts for me writing my book is actually I created a model of, I guess you call it healing, I call it MBT recovery masculine

27:20 betrayal trauma recovery. And what I being a guy, what I know, and also working with men is we like, we like to see like, how does this work, right? Like, man, we like to fix that Men, we

27:33 like to fix things. We like to understand how things work. We don't like to ask for directions. But so this basically, I created seven stages of the recovery process to help men navigate the

27:48 betrayal so they can understand where they are on the journey. Now, of course, like anything in life, nothing is linear, right? So just because you're on stage four, which is competitiveness

28:00 and jealousy doesn't mean you're not going to drop back and have a bunch of shame and shock and an ego injury, which is stage one. So yeah, I've kind of created this, we'll call it a roadmap.

28:12 Actually, I have a roadmap on my website that shows what, yeah, walk, walk me through them. What are the seven stages? Yeah. So the first one is that old ego injury and the shame, right?

28:24 That's, that's what happens, guaranteed everyone, right? That's the first place we're going to go. And then usually what happens next, the second stage is, is questioning our self-worth, which

28:37 is attached to the ego injury. But, but that's where we get to this place where like, was I not enough? Did I not satisfy them? What does that other person have that I don't have, right? And so

28:48 that's, we start to spiral or I like to say, we sell flog a lot.

28:54 The third stage is anger and projection. And we can do a a whole podcast one day on anger, if you want. Right. I want to say this. Most men don't know how to how to do what's called healthy anger

29:11 and just sometimes putting the word healthy and anger together. People are like, what the hell are you talking about? But anger is a super important process. If you know what a feeling wheel is,

29:21 I mean, anger is, you know, mad, sad, glad, right? Like it's a core feeling And it's something we have to go through, right? Where men get lost in betrayal trauma is they get stuck into the

29:35 fourth stage, which is like the competitiveness and the jealousy. Like, I know I did that. I started thinking like, how am I going to get even with this guy? And I knew his business and I knew

29:45 the people and he had a girlfriend at the time And I was scheming, which felt really good. I'm going to earn my manhood back. But then what I kind of realized was that was really displaced energy.

29:59 He wasn't the problem. He wasn't the issue. and getting even, I'll just tell everyone out there, if you've been betrayed and you think you wanna get even, and you're gonna feel better after you

30:10 do, and all my years have never worked with anyone that felt really good after getting even. And even like my ex at the time, I remember she told me, she's like, if you need to have an affair,

30:23 if you need to go sleep with someone, I would understand. And I didn't take her up on that, that felt so dirty to me, like, oh, well, I get it Like, you want me to be like you. And then the

30:34 field's level and then right. And so that just never works. So the competitiveness and

30:41 jealousy is really just the distraction from the grief, you know? And then with, do you want to keep going? I don't want to ramble. Sure. I mean, I love all this. Yeah, so the fifth stage I

30:55 have is withdrawal and isolation. And then sixth is the transformation. rebuilding, you have to go through all this pain, you have to go through the grief, and then the seventh is positive growth,

31:11 is the resilience, is learning who you are. What I tell people is if you don't do this work, especially I'll tell men that are getting divorced, it's not the work about why the marriage

31:26 necessarily fell apart or what your partner was or did, it's more about what did I miss? Who am I? What do I need to learn from this experience? And what I see so often is if the guys I work with

31:41 don't do their work, they'll end up picking a partner that's almost the same and they'll end up having some of the same experiences. And then they'll be like, I can't believe this is happening

31:52 again. And I'm like, of course it's effing happening again. Are you kidding me? Like I told you is going to happen again, right? So you got to go through the process. You've got to go through

32:02 the grief, you've got to look at yourself, you have to take your armor off and see really what's underneath there, what got you to this place. Those are my stages. No, I love that because I'm

32:18 looking back

32:21 at me post-divorce. Yeah, I did. I went through all of those stages I think one of the important ones for me that happened, and I'm going to say this as a statement and you can

32:36 opine on it, was I figured out that I had way too much of my sense of self-worth wrapped up in my ex-wife's approval. Yes. And the second that approval got withdrawn, I was just devastated And I

32:54 think a lot of the work that I wound up doing that put me where I am today, where I feel like I'm in a much better place, was actually, I wound up being very spiritual in nature. And I'm not

33:10 trying to push, I'm not trying to be an evangelical in any sort of way. But, you know, priest Patrick convincing me that, hey, there's this cool guy, Jesus, that wants to have a relationship

33:23 with you

33:26 And he's going to accept you, however you are, instead of, oh, I need to go to church, because if I don't, I'm going to go to hell. I mean, that was a big piece of it for me, was just finding

33:39 something to center my sense of self-worth in that wasn't temporal, that could be taken away. And again, I don't say that to push religion on anyone, because I think everybody needs to figure out

33:53 what it is for them but just understanding that. took a long time and a lot of work to really appreciate and then allowed me to start doing work of, okay, well, how am I gonna be better in life?

34:09 Yeah, no, I

34:12 live in Utah a part time. So,

34:16 big, big LDS community and a lot of religion. And what I find is the guys that are open to, it doesn't matter, right, God, Jesus, whatever, right? Like, if you're open to spirituality, what

34:35 I've learned is for in these processes and this kind of work, spirituality is a form of surrendering. It's a form of letting go, it's a form of trusting the universe, whatever it is, right? But

34:50 I think for a lot of men, I work with that's important. Also a lot, it's not, and that's fine too, right? everyone's journey gets to be their own. And as whatever and as many tools as you can

35:02 get to get that clarity to slow down surrendering to God or Jesus or whatever is surrendering to yourself, surrendering and asking for help and saying, I can't do this alone. And see me, accept me,

35:18 hold me. Yeah, kind of a second part of it and this has been really helpful too And one of the things about my priest Patrick is wicked sense of humor, has absolutely no problem dropping an F bomb,

35:34 you know? And so anyway, you know, when you kind of get to the point of, you know, God has a really good sense of humor and you realize that he speaks to you through prayer, through the Bible,

35:48 but also circumstances, when you can actually look situation you're in and go. Okay, God, you put me in a pickle. That's actually pretty funny. I get it, you know, and it kind of translates

36:03 into non-religious terms of controls on illusion. You know, once you can get, yeah, once you can realize you're not in control of everything, you can kind of go with the flow and laugh at things.

36:17 That helped, I think that was the biggest deal for me in my recovery. Yeah, you know, another part made me think of actually, I was just talking to one of the guys in my men group earlier today.

36:30 And he's fresh in it, right? He's so much pain and so confused. And I told him, I said, listen, this might not make sense today, but one day it will, 'cause it did for me is that this is gonna

36:43 be the worst time of your life, one of the worst times in your life. And it's also gonna become one of the best times of your life.

36:52 And he said, he goes, I don't know about the best part, I know. but it's kind of like the journey. This is just a little, a little dot on this long life, right, that you have all the other

37:04 journeys and experiences you have. And I know when I look back,

37:10 like there's a part of me, like I was asked, actually recently, I think on another podcast, they asked me if I had a choice when I do it again, and in a way I would, if there's a way to do

37:21 without all that pain, but it's part of my journey. It's part of who I am It's part of what I think, in many ways, it woke me up, and it gave me the ability to learn and grow, and then I've met,

37:35 I

37:36 have a new partner, I have a new wife. No, she's not new, I had a new career to the old one, and it's different, 'cause I'm different, and I picked it different, and our conversations are

37:49 different, and I might not have had that without this experience. I definitely wouldn't be helping other men either. So it's really bad and it has really great potential to grow and heal and give

38:04 you an experience unlike any other in life, for sure. And the thing I found, so let's compound on the hope, but the thing I found is the skills I've learned and kind of the tools I developed

38:21 during that really low period to get me from way down here to up here. Man, when you're in a healthy position and you use those same tools, oh my gosh, it gets exponential in terms of what you can

38:37 accomplish. Yeah, and I'll just say this, like looking back, I realized so much in that marriage, I didn't really feel safe. And when you don't feel safe, It's hard to be fully in. And I also

38:54 learned a lot about myself. There was a big part of me. I was, I was, I had some love avoidance. Like, and that stemmed to my self-worth. And I don't have that anymore. And I have like, and

39:07 my wife's amazing and she's fierce and we adore each other. And it's like I trust her and she has all of my heart. And I wouldn't have been able to get there without this, without this journey,

39:20 without this moment, if you will. Yeah, another great thing along those lines that my priest Patrick always taught me or talked about is, he says, You're gonna have four marriages in your life.

39:37 Now it may be with one person, but there are gonna be four very distinct periods of marriage in your life Yeah, and

39:50 so he always used to say he would say, You know, at the end of the day, Chuck, we need to get, we can't control your ex-wife. We can only control you. Let's go get you in the best place you can.

40:02 And if it turns out you and Kim figure it out, great. You'll have marriage number two, and then marriage number three. And if not, let's put you in the place where the next relationship that

40:14 comes along is better than this one. And so.

40:20 Why is it true? Yeah, well, the other thing I want to ask you about, and I feel like I should pay you for the therapy session, but I'm a big fan of

40:40 breathing in terms of, because we've been sitting here talking about mental anguish, et cetera, but it translates into the physiological and. Another thing I went through was, you know, the

40:54 tightness in my chest, getting nervous, you know, feeling the anxiety and, you know, Bernay Brown's story when it comes to breathing is, she always thought it was hogwash, you know, all the

41:08 people that do yoga and breathing, she's like, Yeah. That's BS and, you know, everyone with their breathing techniques, whatever, until she went and spent two weeks with the Navy Seals And the

41:20 Navy Seals are walking into Bin Laden's camp, shooting at him, and they're all doing. Breathe one, two, hold one, two, out one, two, breathe one, two. Yeah,

41:32 it's like a two - And a box, box breathing and stuff, yeah. They do box breathing to control it. Do you have thoughts on that? I mean, it's a

41:42 great way of maintaining or limiting anxiety Like, I also do, I'm familiar with EMDR, but I do a lot of EMDR with my clients. And one of the things we do is tapping, which is kind of like

41:57 breathing. And it's the idea, right? The idea behind the breathing is the rhythm keeps us grounded. It changes part of our, this other part of our minds not off running away. So kind of like

42:10 when we're nervous, people like their legs bounce, that's not helping, that's actually adding to the anxiety. But if you alternate it and you do a rhythm, so you can tap your thighs, you can do

42:21 this. Tapping is just like the breathing. It creates a rhythm and it does what we call bilateral stimulation in your it So. brain alternates the hemispheres and it slows us down, it calms us. But

42:36 yeah, anxiety and stress is adding a lot of men that are struggling with that and then some depressive kind of episodes or markers, right? 'Cause this, look, this stuff's stressful, The stuff's

42:47 hard, but if you do the work and you talk about it. you don't have to carry it and you can start to heal and you can be better for it.

42:56 The, you know, one of the interesting thoughts I had on stress is my mom wound up having a hip replacement surgery and that's probably like 15 years ago. And I went and saw her the next day and I

43:13 said, Mom, how you doing? And she goes, Well, I'm obviously in pain 'cause I was splayed open yesterday and all But she said, The chronic arthritis in my knee or my hip. She said, I had no

43:31 idea how painful that wasand how debilitating that wasuntil now when I don't feel it. Don't have it, yeah. And I kind of think the same thing with stress 'cause when I remember

43:48 having my issues with my ex-wife, having my issues with my ex-wife. and calling Patrick my priest up and literally just dumping on him one night. And I just remember at that moment, feeling less

44:03 of something that in hindsight had been debilitating for the last 10 years. Yeah. I all often say in session or in group that Pink Floyd had it right with comfortably numb. Yeah I don't know if you

44:19 guys get the licensing back. That'll be maybe a good theme song for the service. Yeah, there we go. You make that happen. If we cut it in YouTube or

44:29 flag via podcast. Yeah, it's too bad. Man, it'll be so bad. But yeah, you're right on comfortably numb. Exactly. Well, this has been great you coming on. Tell me kind of in closing bits,

44:46 What else do men need to be thinking about?

44:51 They're health in general, like, you know, I think part of being a man that's ingrained part of us is that we have to provide for everyone and care for everyone, and we put our needs second. What

45:04 I can tell you is if you don't give to yourself, you don't take care of yourself, you will not have the capacity or the energy to help anyone else. And whatever you do do to help others is gonna be

45:15 half ass. It's not gonna be at your best. So I would say, listen to yourself, listen to your heart, listen to your body in self care. Buy my book. There you go. Well, I was gonna say, how do

45:30 folks reach you? Yeah, so the easiest best way is my website, it's pretty simple, it's betrayalstreakcom. And

45:41 you can Google my name

45:44 and you can find my book, I mean, you can Google my name and I'm all over the place. You can get on Amazon and find my book. my name and also there's links of course on my website to my book to

45:53 help me navigate the trail. No, Adam, this was great. I didn't cry. I got close on a couple of. I know, I thought it was solid. It was good. George Washington's story always chokes me up. It

46:07 gets you every time.

46:10 Founding of the nation. So I appreciate you coming on. This has been great Thanks Chuck. I appreciate you having me. I appreciate you putting this out there to your viewers. You maybe wouldn't

46:24 search for something like this. Hopefully, you know, part for me is I just. If I can just help one man a day, that's like amazing because then I think they have a partner and they have kids and

46:37 they have friends like the trickle down. That's what this is about. It's helping each other and lifting each other up. So thanks for for having me. Yeah, a couple of things that Patrick, my

46:48 priest and I did during the last couple of years, the downturn, is we actually had some men retreats at my house. So think 10 guys, spend them - 74, right. 72 hours, yeah. And one of the

47:04 things that was so great about those things - and I doubted Patrick on this - Patrick's like, we have to cook. And I go, what do you mean we have to cook? We've got great food and richmen. I'll

47:14 run out, get us tacos, whatever Patrick's like, no, you need to cook. And he said, trust me on this. And one of the big moments, one of the big reveals, one of the big moments of

47:27 vulnerability in the retreat is we're sitting there chopping vegetables because we were making gumbo.

47:35 And in the middle of chopping vegetables, a guy told us about an incident in his life. And it was pretty powerful in hindsight talking to Patrick about it. The thing he said was, one, when you're

47:49 in those primal moments, like eating and stuff, more. Yeah. Shields, shields go down. Shields go down. And then number two, the guy didn't have to look any of us in the eyes. He was looking

48:02 down chopping vegetables, and that just kind of gave him enough of a cover so that he was comfortable. He was, say, flint sharing. Yeah. When we get in our bodies, all those other defense

48:14 mechanisms kind of go away That's a great story. Yeah. No, it was a lot of fun, but it was very powerful. I shouldn't say it was a lot of fun, but anyway, Adam, appreciate you coming on. My

48:30 pleasure. Thanks for having me.